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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:06 pm 
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I mean, I don't really go to the OTR? subforum that often, in any forum, so I'm not familiar with that type of behavior, but IMO, if you were using the forum normally, such behavior just doesn't take place.

I mean, I do double post once in a while if I want others to be aware that I made a new post, but if the posting time is pretty close, I'll generally edit, I think, and I highly doubt I would ever triple post.

Though I suppose that's just another "seeking different things from a forum" argument.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:17 pm 
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If NGA ever gets an 18+ section, I will leave for good and I won't be coming back.

With that being said, please continue the impassioned speech about your right to spam the off topic room because the site should cater to absolutely everything no matter what it is, with no reasonable limits being set on any sort of content that could be included because it might upset someone somewhere who likes that kind of content.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:19 pm 
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That's fine with me.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:20 pm 
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I don't go around saying "it's not okay for you to be allowed to put a very distracting image of pikachu that adds nothing to the thread". Instead I just ignore it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:23 pm 
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here are the specific policy changes I have always stood for:

-no profanity filter
-no separate accounts for mods
-18+ forum
-more leniency banning people for being jerks (though equal leniency against morally repulsive things, like gore and sexism, that's all good now)
-substantial leniency for "spam"/"not serious" threads (which is the de facto situation in OTR right now, and which I think is good)
-door as admin
-rename 'doorforums'


The profanity filter is a basic courtesy feature that prevents people from regularly using words like ****, ****, ****, and **** in everyday conversation. There is a basic courtesy the site owner is allowed to ask of you when you are posting on their site, and if you don't want to exhibit that then the profanity filter is around to do some bare minimum censoring.

Mods have separate accounts so that if they so choose they can keep their "mod life" and "posting life" separate. The fact that the majority on here don't shows that they are more community members than managers.

An 18+ forum would give the site a certain reputation that certain users would be extremely uncomfortable associating with.

The mods show A LOT of leniency already. In my opinion, way way way too much when it comes to people saying very nasty things about each other. I've been here since 2013 too, and I can tell you that DOTP didn't use to be as laid back as it is now.

And the spam is the reason people are leaving the otr room and generally upset with the current situation.

Edit:

This is not door's ideal forum. That was the entire point of this post. It is not reasonable for you to expect the forum to cater to absolutely everything, and some of your demands are quite unreasonable for other reasons.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:33 pm 
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Although I'd enjoy door's forum more, I don't think they're conductive towards the NGA that people are trying to cultivate. I don't think a subforum in the OTR or a lack of strict moderation of the OTR would go against that image.

On the topic of febb's triple post, it takes longer to edit a post rather than double post than it does for the person reading it to scroll down a few extra inches. A forum software edit that let people edit posts without being taken to a new page, similar to how one can reply without going using the full editor would probably help in encouraging edits rather than successive posts.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:17 am 
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I don't go around saying "it's not okay for you to be allowed to put a very distracting image of pikachu that adds nothing to the thread". Instead I just ignore it.

2 things I'd like to say in response to this:

1: Very few users (with Razorborne and squinty_eyes being the only users I can think of off the top of my head) "put anything distracting" in their posts rather than in their signature. Signatures are a different matter entirely, and animated signature/avatars were discussed long ago here in the metaboard.

2: Everyone has the option to post without their avatar being included, as I often do. As I said a few months back,* there's no accounting for some people, but I try to be courteous and only include my signature when it won't extend my post longer than my avatar box.


To be clear, point number 1 is against you, but point number 2 is for you.

*in what, if I recall correctly, was a thread Razorborne created here about restructuring the forums


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:23 am 
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Yeah, they've been discussed but either way you have control over whether or not you see them so it's fine, just like most threads on the forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:27 am 
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razorborne wrote:
Rubik wrote:
That said, I'd prefer for none of these threads to be deleted. I'd prefer to have a separate section or subsection created to move low-effort off-topic discussions to (so long as they aren't violating any other site rules). There are people who like these sorts of posts, and it's unfair to them to take that away from them. There is no "right kind of content" in this case, it's not your responsiblity to deny content to people who want it, it's to sort the content so that people are able to access the sort of content they want. As long as the low-effort posts are in an area that doesn't prevent people who care only about "meaningful discussion" from being able to see it easily, there absolutely shouldn't be a problem.

this reminds me of the discussion we had early on about an 18+ room. Butt and others were arguing that it was their right to have a place to discuss things like sex and drug use, while others were arguing, I believe rightly, that allowing that space didn't create the sort of community we wanted to created. this isn't a board for just any sort of content, it's a board for specific kinds of content that create the community we want to create. if you want to be spammy with these people, you have plenty of options for that outside the boards, like your Steam Chat. that sort of low-content output is not, I believe, the sort of content that makes this community what I'd like it to be, so I would rather keep it off the boards entirely. and, as I said earlier, KoS, OTT, and lots of other spamfest groups have demonstrated that walled-off spam areas have a way of spilling over. but more importantly, I think that, as a community, we look worse if we have a section devoted to threads like "This Thread Has No Topic" and the Banwatcherwatchers thread.

:duel:
the 18+ discussion is the exact same as this discussion

some people want this forum to be a professional, clean extension of WotC (but better run), with somewhat strict moderation, limits on content, and a positive general image. the want it to be a community that is nice, welcoming and accessible. they want their moderators to be politicians: friendly, polite and detached.

there are others who would like this forum to be an extension of woodenmarble or kher keep, which had zero limits on content (I'm thinking more of KK here), which allowed for adult content and basically absolute freedom (beyond violating the whims of the mods). it was dramatic, chaotic, often cruel and abrasive. on the other hand, it allowed for a frankness and honesty (esp from the administration) that, I think, made it more personal. i still talk to people from kher keep and i cant say that about any other online community

at its worst, the former is MTGS. at its worst, the latter is "the source"

this is an argument that has existed since the forum was in pre-planning. i have always stood on the side of the latter but it isn't exactly a resolvable dispute. i just think it is important to examine which side you are on and why you are on that side

this is a pretty succinct summary of the issue, and seems to lack basically any bias. I think this is an important post that everyone should read and understand. this isn't really a discussion of what's "right" in an objective sense, it's a discussion of what our goals are.

personally, I think that enough people have invested enough in NGA that it's worth playing for the long term, and the WotC model has shown itself better at long-term sustainability. those forums ran great for the better part of a decade, and would've continued to had they not decided to pointlessly overhaul the moderation philosophy. WM, KK, and the source all became functionally closed communities fairly quickly, and while those communities were enjoyable for a time they weren't conducive to expansion, and given the serious work the YMtC community, the M:EMfolk, and others have built here, I think sealing ourselves off is bad.

the Keep was a tight-knit family of ****holes. (no insult meant: I'm one of them.) we were vicious, acerbic, and mean, but we had a lot of fun. but Galen was able to make a banner that included literally all of us. (well, they missed Gnome, but still. he included a couple of their friends who weren't really major contributors so it balances out.) that's not what I want for NGA. NGA represents a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, and I think that that effort deserves support and respect.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:29 am 
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I'm in favour of running things like wizards did but I don't think that a spam forum contradicts their style of running things.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:47 am 
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I think some sort of invite-only offtopic forum should exist

I really hate that idea.

It represents the most exclusionary nature you could ask for.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:48 am 
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Invite only sections are terrible.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:56 am 
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I don't think it should be a fewer rules forum, I think it should be a forum where people can post silly things, make jokes, and post random thoughts without worrying about breaking rules for being off topic and stuff. I thought our current off topic already covered it, but if people prefer it to be a more structured place to discuss media and politics and such, then I wouldn't mind splitting the off topic room into a "serious business" forum and a "just for fun" off topic forum.

I don't think there should be any section of the forum where people are allowed to behave inappropriately, nor do I think we need a hidden or request-access forum.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:02 am 
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I feel like, from my experience at WM and KK, that an invite-only forum serves to delineate users. whether it's meant to or not, it winds up creating a sense that the invite-only forum is the real forum. it's the one someone has to approve you for. on KK, basically all discussion eventually shifted to the 18+ board.

that also winds up driving the same exclusionary tendencies I've been concerned about the whole time: new people can't just show up, check out the community, and decide they like it, because a large chunk of it is hidden behind a you-have-to-be-deemed-worthy wall. and even if that deeming is just asking permission, it sends a message that you're not really a full-fledged member until you're in that club, which is an unfriendly face to show people who're checking us out for the first time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:20 am 
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one thing worth noting: a lot of forums here have a "general chat" type thread, where the goals of that forum aren't really enforced and people can just talk to each other. in the YMtC one, we're currently having a serious discussion about feminism in the context of magic tournaments, and it's pretty interesting. that seems like a scaled-down version of what you guys are requesting, and I don't see that it'd be a problem given that it's working elsewhere. making it a single thread means that you can't do things like Lilan spamming every passing thought for pages and pages, but that's a loss I'm ok with. I'd want it generally contained to that one thread, but if everyone else gets one I don't see why you shouldn't too.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:45 am 
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razorborne wrote:
it's not that I feel like there's something wrong with spam. it's that the CoC does, and always has, and until recently that was decently enforced, but because there's now no mod down there it's gotten a little out of hand. you, Rag, and Door all posted a lot before this recent wave of nonsensical proliferation, and you all have places to do that outside of the forums, so I don't really see why it's necessary to allow it here.

and an opt-in system is even worse. given that if we advertise it we lose the point of hiding it in the first place, we wind up just making a whole separate forum for the four or five of you to screw around in, which excludes newcomers for no reason and doesn't address to spillage issues. and no, it's not just about the people involved, it's about establishing community norms. saying that this is acceptable on NGA if you do it in this one place is a much weaker stance than saying that it's just not acceptable. over time, people get used to the idea that they can spam on NGA, and then that spills over. it happened with KOS, it happened with the OTT, and it'll happen here if we give it the space to do so. whereas, until very recently, the very same people here were behaving pretty well. then they found a foothold where they could start spamming and not get punished, and now we've got a problem.

:duel:


When you're discussing changing policy, you can't say something is right just because it is in line with the current policy. The CoC should reflect the best interests of the members—if at any point it doesn't, it should be re-written. That said, here is what the CoC says about spam:

"Do not spam. This includes posting in a thread multiple times in succession, as well as posting off-topic content ("derailing")."

Every topic that doesn't fit elsewhere on the board and doesn't violate the CoC should be fair game in the "Off Topic" section because that is the intention of the board. There is no rule saying "do not post low effort posts" or "no joking around, we are a serious community" so I don't see why anyone should be surprised that people have been making these sorts of posts.

In my opinion, it's only *real* spam if it is excessive and/or automated. There's nothing wrong with making a low effort post so long as it doesn't interfere with other people's enjoyment of the forum, right? I'm not arguing that we should let Rag post a thread of him saying "Bread" one hundred thousand times, because that would legitimately be spam, but that doesn't mean we should stop Rag from making a legitimate effort to discuss bread in the Off Topic forum just because a handful of people dislike seeing that a thread about bread exists.

And no, I didn't post a lot before this "wave of nonsensical proliferation", at least not to my knowledge. If the rules for posting had been more strict, I doubt I would have really participated in NGA aside from playing a few games of forum mafia. I don't think most of my posts are "low quality", but I like having the freedom to joke around with my friends and I like to think that this is a community that encourages its members having fun. I started posting in the YMTC section because Rag created this thread: http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?t=9113&p=287617. I started posting in the Off Topic section regularly because of Rag's topicless thread. I think I can say with some level of conviction that silly, low-effort threads in moderation are not something that intrinsically scare away or draw in members.

I understand that some people prefer not to have to look at low effort posts and I'd be fully supportive of separating the Off Topic section into something along the lines of "Discussion" and "Chit-Chat" if you don't think these two posting styles can coexist.

If you're completely against splitting it into two sections, I'd be willing to see a mega-thread created that posts from unsuccessful threads can be relocated to in order to keep the front page of the Off Topic section filled with meaningful and/or recent threads without needlessly eliminating content.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:53 am 
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Rubik wrote:
And no, I didn't post a lot before this "wave of nonsensical proliferation", at least not to my knowledge. If the rules for posting had been more strict, I doubt I would have really participated in NGA aside from playing a few games of forum mafia. I don't think most of my posts are "low quality", but I like having the freedom to joke around with my friends and I like to think that this is a community that encourages its members having fun. I started posting in the YMTC section because Rag created this thread: http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?t=9113&p=287617. I started posting in the Off Topic section regularly because of Rag's topicless thread. I think I can say with some level of conviction that silly, low-effort threads in moderation are not something that intrinsically scare away or draw in members.
then my recollection is incorrect. sorry about that, I remembered playing some mafia games with you and figured you were around otherwise. guess I was wrong.

that said, even if you weren't posting, you're hardly an archetypal "new member". you're a good friend of Rag, Door, and a bunch of other posters. you started posting in YMtC apparently due to a thread Rag made explicitly inviting you. most new members don't have that. Rag doesn't make a thread for each new poster who comes along, and if they did they'd get in a lot of trouble because that's a lot of wasted space. your story of engaging with the community because your good friend was allowed to spam it relentlessly is not one most new recruits are going to be able to relate to.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:41 am 
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razorborne wrote:
then my recollection is incorrect. sorry about that, I remembered playing some mafia games with you and figured you were around otherwise. guess I was wrong.

that said, even if you weren't posting, you're hardly an archetypal "new member". you're a good friend of Rag, Door, and a bunch of other posters. you started posting in YMtC apparently due to a thread Rag made explicitly inviting you. most new members don't have that. Rag doesn't make a thread for each new poster who comes along, and if they did they'd get in a lot of trouble because that's a lot of wasted space. your story of engaging with the community because your good friend was allowed to spam it relentlessly is not one most new recruits are going to be able to relate to.

:duel:


The last time we played mafia together was back on Px2 before Wizards removed all remaining functionality from the site.

I don't think "a friend told me about it" is that uncommon of a reason for joining a forum. I don't think it would be bad if every month Rag made a thread for a new poster and then recruited a new member by doing so. The problem lies in these sorts of posts cluttering out more substantial posts, but I fail to see anything wrong with those sorts of threads in moderation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:42 am 
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Rubik wrote:
The last time we played mafia together was back on Px2 before Wizards removed all remaining functionality from the site.

we weren't both players in Intervals Mafia but we were both involved.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:58 am 
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razorborne wrote:
we weren't both players in Intervals Mafia but we were both involved.

:duel:


That's true. I suppose in that case, I played and you hosted. The last time both of us were players in the same game would have been on Px2, though.

Rag asking me to join Intervals is the reason I started playing mafia again, so kudos for that.


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