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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:29 am 
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And uses his newest movie to make his point http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/ ... cannibals/

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:52 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:08 am 
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So, Roth wants to hate on "social justice warriors" by giving them fuel for the fire by making an insensitive representation of tribal culture.

I guess he'll do a great job of creating awareness for preservation of the rainforest by scaring people away from defending it. And outing himself as a blatant racist by depicting tribal cultures as horrific savages. It's hilarious because it's just generic different brown people so you should be scared of them. "I'm going to show these people who tweet about making positive changes in society by demonstrating how racist I can be in a Hollywood film. That will really prove my point".

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:30 am 
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Horror as a genre suffers from it's early roots in "fear what's different" and all the racist misinformation coming back from the British Colonialism period. Not an excuse, but just something Horror writers have to consider when creating. It's also problematic that continued creations like this fuel the underlying fear that causes a lot of the less obvious racism in society today.

What I find really interesting here, is that Roth takes the typical "I hate social justice warriors" complaint (all you do is criticize other people, you never actually do anything) and goes 100% berserk on it...don't talk about it because you're annoying and lazy, but don't do anything either because I'll kill you :P

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:02 am 
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Shadowchu wrote:
And outing himself as a blatant racist by depicting tribal cultures as horrific savages. It's hilarious because it's just generic different brown people so you should be scared of them. "I'm going to show these people who tweet about making positive changes in society by demonstrating how racist I can be in a Hollywood film. That will really prove my point".

So, I haven't looked into it, but is he depicting a specific tribe? Can it really be racist if he's not targeting an actual group of people? Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are many, many tribal cultures around the world, but which one is this supposed to be? Making a fictitious tribe of cannibals is no worse than any other Horror Movie villain to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:07 am 
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So, I haven't looked into it, but is he depicting a specific tribe? Can it really be racist if he's not targeting an actual group of people? Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are many, many tribal cultures around the world, but which one is this supposed to be? Making a fictitious tribe of cannibals is no worse than any other Horror Movie villain to me.

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are you serious? recreating the old savage cannibal native stereotype that fifteenth to nineteenth century europeans titillated themselves with is not racist unless he specifies a particular ethnic group?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:11 am 
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I am serious, if the tribe isn't named and just fictitious. Is any television show or movie racist if they use a generic Middle-Eastern terrorist for a plot device?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:28 am 
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How about every time they depict Germans as Nazis?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:45 am 
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I am serious, if the tribe isn't named and just fictitious. Is any television show or movie racist if they use a generic Middle-Eastern terrorist for a plot device?

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Okay, I am going to approach this in good faith.

Yes, because racism is not about the actual ethnicities and heritages of people. Racism is about the racialization of peoples, as in the creation of bio/social categories of people. Africa is a highly diverse continent with multitudes of languages, cultural groups, etc., but racism created the idea of the Negroid race, which groups these multitudes into one 'race' which had ascribed physical and social attributes and potentiality, just as it created the idea of the Caucasoid and the Mongoloid. (You can listen to Chimamanda Adichie mention how she never thought of herself as "African" before coming to the US.)

Racism occurs regardless of accuracy of its depictions, and in fact, it has never been accurate. It's not more racist to say, "I hate the Igbo," versus saying, "I hate black people," the latter group being very much an imagined group. Racism, at its core, is about the imagination of peoples. Racism is not hating the Quechua or the Zaparo specifically. Racism is perpetuating the idea of the "Indian" or the "Native" or whatever word one wants to use, an idea that is object to the subject (i.e., actual realized people and their white supremacist fears), an idea that continues to have real world implications (see: the continued human rights violations towards indigenous peoples in South America). It's using the imagination of a nameless savage tribe to play on culturally taught fears within the context of the lack of actual representation of real Peruvian indigenous peoples.

Would it be racist for these images to be made if our society never had these ideas of godless savage cannibals, an understanding that justified the inhumane treatment of American indigenous? Would it be racist for these images to be made if they were made within the context of a robust multicultural society where the actual voices and images of Peruvian indigenous were not only accessible but part of our broader understanding of the world? Maybe. But we don't live in that world.

In the same way, the image of the Middle Eastern terrorist is racist regardless of whether the terrorist is named as Afghani or a made-up nationality. It being generic does not make it better because the construction of the Middle Easterner is already generic and does not adhere to reality. The reality is that the imagination of the Middle Eastern Muslim terrorist exists regardless, and this idea (a fictional character that can only exist in reflection of American cultural fear) is used to rationalize and motivate hate crimes, discrimination, and war.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:47 am 
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I was gonna say a thing but while I was writing DS said a better and more in-depth thing

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:12 pm 
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DS wrote:
It's not more racist to say, "I hate the Igbo," versus saying, "I hate black people," the latter group being very much an imagined group.

Didn't realize black people were imaginary. But your typo aside, if everything is racist, even the imaginary, then there is no conversation to have.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:06 pm 
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DS wrote:
It's not more racist to say, "I hate the Igbo," versus saying, "I hate black people," the latter group being very much an imagined group.

Didn't realize black people were imaginary. But your typo aside, if everything is racist, even the imaginary, then there is no conversation to have.

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black people aren't imaginary, but the group classification is.

there's a tendency in white narrative to draw huge distinctions between caucasian (especially western european and north american) groups, then lump everyone else together. it's like how we have Spanish, French, British, and then just Asian. most white people have a pretty good idea of how Scottish people are different from Greek people, but have very little idea of the differences between, say, the Taiwanese and the Japanese. similarly, the classification "black" conflates the cultural experiences of people from Ghana, Jamaica, Detroit, and lots of other places that have no real modern cultural connection.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:16 pm 
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If that can be classified as racism then im going to have to go as far aa to say that not all racism is bad, imo.

This is exactly why I didn't want off topic up here because it tempts me to post here.

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Last edited by LilyStorm on Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:17 pm 
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Perhaps a gross oversimplification will help.

Imagine a big box, big and tough enough that people can't climb or break out of it, with small translucent windows in the sides. You can see through to what's inside, but you can't see all of it, and what you do see is distorted and discolored. Racism can be described as the process of creating such an imaginary box, putting people inside it, and judging them based on what they look like through the sides.

The issue here isn't that the movie is putting specific people--or even a specific group of people--into such a box. It's not, since, as you said, such a group doesn't actually exist. The issue is that the film is perpetuating the box's existence, further discoloring and distorting those windows, and putting a sign on it saying "Native Savages Go Here" that encourages the practice of putting people into the box.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:25 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
If that can be classified as racism then im going to have to go as far aa to say that not all racism is bad, imo.

This is exactly why I didn't want off topic up here because it tempts me to post here.

to be clear, I don't think referencing artificial racial categories is inherently racist. because those categories exist, addressing them is an important step toward resolving modern racism. we do need to talk about how we treat black people as a class, because we've made them a class. but reveling in those categories, especially as one who is not a member of those categories, is racist. perpetuating stereotypes about those categories is racist. using them as a backdrop for dismissive ooga-booga mysticism and gore-porn savagery is racist.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:25 pm 
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What's funny is that the main characters in the movie are coming back from actually doing something instead of staying at home and not doing anything. Fun Fact : The film was inspired by Italian cannibal films of the late 1970s and early 80s, including Cannibal Holocaust, which features a film-within-a-film titled The Green Inferno.

and the movie was criticized by Survival International, which campaigns for indigenous peoples and indigenous peoples living in voluntary isolation, as reinforcing colonialism and respectively neocolonialism, as well as their stigmas against indigenous peoples portraying them as uncivilized. Eli Roth dismissed this argument as unimportant for stopping exploitation: "The idea that a fictional movie about a fictional tribe could somehow hurt indigenous people when gas companies are tearing these villages apart on a daily basis is simply absurd. These companies don't need an excuse — they have one — the natural resources in the ground. They can window dress things however they like, but nobody will destroy a village because they didn't like a character in a movie, they'll do it because they want to get rich by draining what's under the village. The fear that somehow a movie would give them ammunition to destroy a tribe all sounds like misdirected anger and frustration that the corporations are the ones controlling the fates of these uncontacted tribes."

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm 
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DS wrote:
It's not more racist to say, "I hate the Igbo," versus saying, "I hate black people," the latter group being very much an imagined group.

Didn't realize black people were imaginary. But your typo aside, if everything is racist, even the imaginary, then there is no conversation to have.

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to be honest, responses like these is why people do not seriously respond to **** on the internet anymore, because an angry tumblr-style post and an attempt at explaining using basic sociology/critical studies is met with the same level of dismissal and the former takes less effort. like i took the time to address your question in good faith and you took zero attempt to grasp anything i spoke to. i could have said, '**** you and your blind ignorance,' and your response would have been just as substantive. like, i don't know, read a book or something. orientalism by said is pretty foundational, or a small place by jamaica kincaid, or like any book if you google 'race social construct'. that youtube video i linked to speaks to the issue very well and without any of the jargon i may use (a small place is also jargon-free)

anyway, i'm moving on from this conversation, though razorborne has answered this post already.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:47 pm 
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also, i find it hilarious that the movie is supposed to be like anti-sjw but, like deadpoet just said, they're doing something when eli roth is asserting that sjws do nothing, and also, the whole premise of their trip would probably be criticized by sjws as white saviorism


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:48 pm 
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deadpoet wrote:
What's funny is that the main characters in the movie are coming back from actually doing something instead of staying at home and not doing anything. Fun Fact : The film was inspired by Italian cannibal films of the late 1970s and early 80s, including Cannibal Holocaust, which features a film-within-a-film titled The Green Inferno.

and the movie was criticized by Survival International, which campaigns for indigenous peoples and indigenous peoples living in voluntary isolation, as reinforcing colonialism and respectively neocolonialism, as well as their stigmas against indigenous peoples portraying them as uncivilized. Eli Roth dismissed this argument as unimportant for stopping exploitation: "The idea that a fictional movie about a fictional tribe could somehow hurt indigenous people when gas companies are tearing these villages apart on a daily basis is simply absurd. These companies don't need an excuse — they have one — the natural resources in the ground. They can window dress things however they like, but nobody will destroy a village because they didn't like a character in a movie, they'll do it because they want to get rich by draining what's under the village. The fear that somehow a movie would give them ammunition to destroy a tribe all sounds like misdirected anger and frustration that the corporations are the ones controlling the fates of these uncontacted tribes."

I love that I've gotten to reference fallacies of relative privation so much recently. "I can do bad things because people are doing worse things" is a bad argument, as is conflating surface motivation with societal perception issues. the fact that we keep painting these people as inhuman absolutely does give them the political cover they need to wipe out these tribes and their lands. if you can't see that, try to imagine the uproar if they tried to clearcut Central Park.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:05 pm 
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@DS - For the record, I did read your posts, about three times over. As did my wife. But in the end, basically all either of us could sort out was than everything is racist, even the imaginary. It wasn't a criticism on your stance, more that based on what I read, there wasn't going to be a conversation that wasn't each of us being massively one sided just talking at a wall over it. I could have gone through your points one by one, but it didn't seem like it would help.

@GrifterMage - I don't see how the movie can both not be racist and promote racism simultaneously.

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