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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
What I'm doing is presenting a logical argument which you don't have to agree with. What you're doing is not presenting a counter argument other than "you're dumb".


Sorry, but I've given just as much, if not more argument than yourself.

Your entire argument is:

"Think about it! What actually caused the bikers to do it!?"

That is not even an argument. That's just a bunch of mumbo jumbo that doesn't actually say anything no matter which words you use to spice it up. The bikers were under their own complete control. They 100% made their own choices. They were not pushed, forced, intimidated into, or even influenced by the police to make the decision they did to form a mob on the highway and attack a man.

Shadowchu wrote:
Yes, you are legally allowed to harm others in self-defense but you are not understanding the scenario properly or my intentions. I don't care about this situation based on an individual level. I am looking at it from societal context.

Yes and you are completely wrong on your initial presumption that you can arbitrarily attack B if you get pissed off by A.
That is completely false and not considered morally right in any part of the known universe.
I'm not sure what else to tell you, because this initial belief is completely wrong and completely debunks your entire case.
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I'm not getting into is moral to harm other people, I'm saying that it could be prevented if we found problems within society rather than blaming the individual who is affected by society.

No the problem within society is there are idiots within it and they sometimes make incredibly stupid decisions.

And when these decisions come back to bite them, I have no problem with it.

Blaming society for these individuals actions is akin to blaming grand theft auto for gang violence.

Furthermore, that wasn't even your original point. Your original point was specifically that the police blocking their little convention was the party to blame for this whole incident. While theoretically true that it was the initial event, it isn't the real culprit in reality.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:13 pm 
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well, at least you're trying, Tony which is more than usual.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:18 pm 
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So, they arrested the brake checker on 5 counts ranging from traffic violations to endangering the safety of a child.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Good. Brake checking is annoying and pointless and dangerous.

Shadow, you can argue that the Bikers had a right to be pissed off about being banned from Times Square, and you could even potentially make some kind of case for violent action against the government, but I can't think of any logic that makes it okay to harass this random driver, to cause him to hit you, and then to retaliate because "hey, he hit me!" And then when he drives off afraid for his life and runs someone over in the process, to follow him and further assault him is indefensible.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:31 pm 
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I'm not condoning violence or anything or that the group was right to hurt the driver. I'm just saying we can probably stop looking at things from a surface level and be reactionary to everything.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
I'm just saying we can probably stop looking at things from a surface level and be reactionary to everything.
Let's not do that. Being reactionary to everything is paranoid and delusional. We have higher thought processes than a squirrel.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:45 pm 
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I only hope that his injuries make it impossible for him to procreate.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
What I'm doing is presenting a logical argument which you don't have to agree with. What you're doing is not presenting a counter argument other than "you're dumb".

I'll listen to a real argument against what I'm saying but if you're going to be a child about it I'm going to disregard what you're saying.

Shadowchu wrote:
well, at least you're trying, Tony which is more than usual.




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:29 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
If there aren't reasons for people to take these kinds of actions then people won't make them.

****. People are **** sometimes, and they make up their own intrinsic excuses to act like it. Society corrects some of that instinctual behavior through communal law, without which, we would still be merely part of the ecology, rather than an actual society.

We don't prosecute much in the way of thoughtcrime in American society, but commit actual crime, and there will be reprecussions. Indicate a set of behaviors of high risk, and there will be sanctions. Those sanctions are a warning, much like blockading Times Square from a bunch of **** willing to cause damage.

Looking at the Internet Archive for Hollywood Stuntz shows us this, "Hollywood, as he's called by his friends and fans, is a motorcycle stunt rider out of Brooklyn, New York. He is part of the Blockstarz Entertainment family, a team of motorcycle stunt riders that hold annual events as a forum for themselves and other stunt riders in the New York area (and sometimes riders from out of state) to show off the most insane stunts the thousands of bystanders have ever seen. The danger involved with motorcycle stunt riding makes the skills displayed that much more intense and crowd-pleasing."

So, they hold unapproved events on legitimate roadways (like Hollywoods Block Party 2011), performing high-risk activities around bystanders and other drivers for personal attention. Yes, the police as an arm of society has every right to discourage their pattern of illegal behavior through sanctions. Here is the now removed plea from Blockstarz Entertainment, that intended to play host to the day's activities:

"So here are a few things i would like to point out for HOLLYWOODS BLOCK PARTY STREET RIDE!!!! I am not trying to have un needed issues with the POLICE just to ruin the one day out the year we all meet up to ride the NY. SO PLEASE FOLLOW!

PLEASE REPOST!!!!

1. STAYYYYYY THE HELL OFF THE SIDEWALKS PEOPLE!!! We dont need any one walking on the side walk especially kids getting hurt cause your trying to work your way to the fron!
2. This ride isnt so you can practice your wheelies, dont choose this day to do what you not a pro at... Leave that to the poeple who know what they are doing.
3. Give each person around you there needed space pleaseeee! Streets in NY are messed up and anything can happen.
4.THIS YEAR WE WILL ALL STAND AS ONE! WE ALL WE STICK TOGETHER!!! KEEP YOUR CAMERAS ROLLING FOR ANY HARASSMENT ISSUES!
5. PLEASE NO RACING THREW BIKES!
6. LETS ALL HAVE A PEACEFUL AND SAFE DAY!!! RIDE SAFE EVERYONE!!!!
7.REPOST PLEASE AND THANK YOU!!!!
8. MOST OF ALL MAKE SURE YOU FOLLOW ALL 1-8!!!!"

It's certainly true that the event hosts publicly expressed their intentions for good behavior, all while recognize the heightened risk they were putting the rest of society in by hosting said function. However, it appears they've been forgoing good communication with the surrounding society while planning for these events, instead positioning themselves as being anti-authority/anti-police. I won't remark much on the entitlement mentality this indicates, but it's there. They aren't entitled to use roadways illegally, and if the police want to deter them from doing, they are well within their bounds.

"Ride safe" is not an endorsement of "ride legally."

And while I agree that this group is being mislabelled as a "biker gang" right now — continued behavior like this certainly gets them closer.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:46 pm 
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I really don't understand all the complication and rage and posturing in this thread, but ok.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:53 pm 
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We'll surely get that mature forum seeing the quality of the debate skills here in a non "mature" content thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:55 pm 
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I didn't even think you were arguing at first, just making a point. I'm not even sure you were arguing later bc you just kept making the same point. And it wasn't even really a wrong point. Granted, I skimmed the middle part.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Shadowchu wrote:
We'll surely get that mature forum seeing the quality of the debate skills here in a non "mature" content thread.


yeah, you made really good posts in this thread it's too bad honestly


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:22 pm 
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When did we get a language filter here? Has it always been here? I was sure I'd seen people use "naughty" words before. Oh, well — in any case, I'll not use them if there's going to be a filter on them. There wasn't any intentional expression of anger by them, they're just words, but I actually think bad words appear angrier when they are filtered then when they are just allowed to stay as unemphasized words.

In any case, I showed references from the actual sources involved in managing this event, which led to this incident. Other than a link to a NY Post article, there weren't any citable references anywhere in the thread; there was some very third-hand relaying of observations and a bunch of claims. At least everyone can make a more educated judgment about the particular group that facilitates these events by reading their own words.

Clearly, I hold the bikers involved in the specific incident mostly accountable, with possible additional accountability held to those organizing the event as a whole. In no way do I hold any blame on the police for making the right call to restrict them from a more densely populated area.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:38 pm 
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PlaneShaper wrote:
When did we get a language filter here? Has it always been here?


yes unfortunately


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:07 am 
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What I think was missed (at least from the discussion on blame) is that with freedoms in this country goes responsibility. If you don't hold those responsibilities, you can get arrested and convicted (resulting in a loss of freedoms) of a crime. The guy who did the brake check was arrested, and he'll have his day in court. What our freedoms DON'T give us freedom to do is:
1. Ignore laws passed and on the books
2. Use correlated but ultimately side "causes" to justify breaking the law.
3. Arrest, assault, or punish people outside of the justice system, no matter what "citizen's arrest" is attempted. That's what the cops and justice system is tasked to do in our society. This is why the brake check guy was also arrested and charged with false imprisonment, or something along those lines. Other charges will probably come down later as videos from around are reviewed.
4. It is noted that the bike group did have a direct causal link to the events with the initial brake check (dude arrested and charged with reckless driving), then aggravated the situation by swarming the SUV in a threatening manner, which led to the SUV driver panicking and fleeing. Fleeing in these situations where your life is in danger, and your family is with you, will probably end up with no charges to the SUV unless the investigation turns up something that materially led to the tragic events. The bikers then further aggravated the incident by chasing the SUV, stopping it again by force, and beating the guy in the streets in full view of his family. All along this way, these bikers had the freedom to choose to do what is permitted under the law (exercise their responsibilities), but did not do so, electing instead to act outside of the law. Thus, they are morally culpable for causing the situation that led to their bike mate losing his mobility. Had they acted responsibly, it is likely that he would not be in the dire situation that he is. They should have called the cops when the bike was bumped, which I believe was unavoidable given the video I watched, and let the authorities sort it out. The wife of this biker should also sue the bikers that intentionally escalated this situation that led to her husband being run under the SUV. It's a given she'll sue the driver of the SUV, but it goes further than that.

The police have every right to restrict public displays if it can cause harm to the public at large, or cause unnecessary disruption to public transportation, business, or any other myriad of reasons. They chose to do that, and that should be no surprise to anyone in this country. Look what happens with post-championship celebrations every year...dispersal orders and crackdowns. In this case, I believe the cops denied in advance to try and avoid problems of the past, which is their civic responsibility. Do not mistake "freedom" and "rights" as allowing you to over-rule public welfare, just so you can do what you want. That has NEVER existed, no matter what people think. The ability for government (including law enforcement) to protect the public at large at the detriment of individual freedom in justifiable circumstances was always part and parcel to the intent of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Without it, our freedoms descend into chaos and anarchy.

As a veteran that defended your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by serving my country in the Navy, I take personal responsibility to be as important as my individual rights. It's a shame these thugs that caused the immediate events in New York didn't understand their own responsibilities. No one seems to anymore, but the court system still enforces that. They'll have their day in court if they are determined to be part of the tragic affair. That's what the law is about. If you don't like the cops making judgement calls like that, move somewhere else. The government of this republic isn't about to change that any time soon.

Having said that, I'm not actually trying to pick a fight with anyone here, but felt a discussion on rights versus responsibility is as important as whether the cops saying no to begin with is a social ill that should be addressed to avoid this in the future. I also don't know if the driver said/did anything to prompt the brake check that started it all. The cops and DA will sort that out. The bikers did act like thugs, though, the video shows it clear as day.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:21 am 
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I mean, if we're going to talk about sources, you should probably count who here has actually driven on the West Side Highway. I have. Hell, I was driving southbound on it about half an hour before this event happened. It's dangerous to drive close to vehicles and the emergency lanes are narrow and sporadic. This isn't a cut-and-dry biker "brake checking" random driver. He "brake checked" a guy that was already driving dangerously and too close to motorcyclists. I don't think it's much of a leap in logic to say these bikers were angry at the SUV's driving, a large portion of them didn't see the "brake check" wreck but knew about said driver's dangerous driving, overreacted to the accident by attacking the vehicle, then things escalated horribly when the driver fled the scene and ran over another biker. All this talk about thugs and all this posturing/self-righteous fury isn't even about this accident, it's more a way for people to talk about themselves. This could have been avoided if the motorcyclist hadn't brake checked the SUV driver, sure. But I wouldn't call a community of joyriders thugs and I wouldn't say a guy helping his idiot friend deserved to be smooshed by a land rover.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:45 am 
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Umm, did you actually watch the video? With some dozen bikes milling around, how could he not be close to them? And the rider looked back as he slammed on the brake! How obvious of an aggressive move is that? Why do you bloody think the cops cited him? And guys who smash a car and beat the driver in the streets are not thugs?

Sense of reality, dude? I'm not posturing about nothing. Tell me what I said about personal responsibility ISN'T correct.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:58 am 
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My sense of reality says the video starts in the middle of the ride. What happened to initiate the encounter isn't on the clip. I appreciate the irony of the allusion to "Allegory of the Cave" here though.

"I'm not posturing about nothing. Tell me what I said about personal responsibility ISN'T correct."

This actually made me laugh out loud. Nice.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:20 am 
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If you are referring to the double negative, whatever.

Also, you seemed to have missed what I said in my last paragraph because you were too busy thinking of what you were going to type to slam me on posturing, so I included it just for you.

"I also don't know if the driver said/did anything to prompt the brake check that started it all. The cops and DA will sort that out."

It's an ongoing investigation for a reason. None of this justifies the bikers chasing and beating the driver outside of the law in apparently self-justified street justice, and it certainly seems at this point that the guy run over was not really part of the melee, so that makes it more of a tragedy.

I have no qualms saying that if you and a group of people beat a person down together, then you are a thug. Those bikers doing the beat down were thugs. I stand by everything I assert, whether you call it posturing or not.

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