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the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots
https://nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=534
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Author:  Lokiare [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

Ko wrote:
man, everyone whose ever had a flu shot must be really lucky if there is a more-than-one-in-ten chance of death each time


I'm on my phone. swipe sucks.

I meant a two percent chance and four percent...

Author:  Van [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

i dont think thats how autism works

Author:  Van [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

why would a flu vaccine cause autism and not the flu itself

Author:  gnomebitten [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

no you see, autism becomes detectable after kids reach a certain developmental age, around the same time most kids get their vaccines. so that means that vaccines cause autism. little thing called, uh, correlation, buddy?

Author:  gnomebitten [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

don't be mean kyle he probably got vaccinated

Author:  Lokiare [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

here's a good one that mentions a study done on hospice workers that showed no change in flu showing for those that got the vaccine.

Author:  Ko [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

no please tell me

Author:  Just_a_cleric [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

Lokiare wrote:

You know, I just read the article and the only thing it mentions about not working is that it showed no difference on the elderly (65+).
Which makes sense, since if you've lived that long you have enough different antibodies that the odds are pretty decent that you have built up a natural resistance (see also the YOU ARE ALREADY IMMUNE heading of that same article).
You know, I read again and it gets even more hilarious if you take those 2 paragraphs and switch them around. Watch:

Quote:
Vaccine-acquired immunity is temporary, whereas the immunity you get by recovering from influenza is longer lasting. Look at Baby Boomers, for example. Evidence shows, if you are an aging baby boomer born prior to 1957, you are more protected and have a lower risk for pandemic H1N1 influenza that circulated in 2009 and other related influenza strains.
So if you're 63+ (at the time the article was written) you have better protection.

Quote:
After the largest flu-vaccination campaign in Canadian history, a Canadian-led study (through the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who analyze the scientific evidence, including the methodology, used in clinical trials) concluded that vaccinating nursing home workers had no effect on confirmed influenza cases among the homes' elderly residents.
Holy crap, really?

I see nothing in there regarding younger patients. And seeing how it's mostly an article talking about why it should NOT be done, and they don't take along the pretty vital group of 20-60, perhaps it works for that aging group?

That said, I do not believe that all shots have effect. And yeah, the fact that a lot of governments were focusing on the elderly was really weird. But a lot of normal, well-planned shots are just fine.

I said it before to you and I'll say it again. 68% of statistics is made up.

Author:  GobO_Stormageddon [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

This your friendly neighborhood moderator reminding you not to flame and or bait each other and to debate ideas and not the person posting the ideas. :ontopic:

Author:  Ko [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

lokiare = REKT

Author:  Lokiare [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

door (dooooooooooor) wrote:


Logical Fallacy: Ad Hominem

In the articles I'm linking he's literally talking about studies done by other scientists. Its irrefutable peer reviewed studies.

Quote:
Quote:
Mercola has questioned whether HIV is the cause of AIDS. He has argued instead that the manifestations of AIDS (including opportunistic infections and death) may be the result of "psychological stress" brought on by the belief that HIV is harmful


[Citation Needed]

Quote:
Quote:
Mercola's website has called microwave ovens dangerous, claiming both that they emit dangerous radiation and that microwaving food alters its chemistry.


That's common knowledge. Its been proven accurate over and over.Here is the article in question where they literally quote other peer reviewed studies done by scientists.. You'll note that there are several studies that are mentioned that back up what they are saying.

Quote:
Quote:
Mercola has also claimed that the use of many commercial brands of sunscreen increases, not decreases, the likelihood of contracting skin cancer with high UV exposure. He advocates the use of "natural" sunscreens, some of which he markets on his website


Yep, because you can't tell the truth if you are selling something right?

If you decide to refute the studies with facts, I'm all ears, but character assassination doesn't an argument make (or unmake in this case)...

Author:  Lokiare [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

I'd like to apologize for the statistics earlier. I was misremembering them. Its 0.02% and 0.04% which in 2012 upwards of 135 million doses were administered means that 27,000 people died from it and 54,000 had seizures and brain damage.

Don't be a statistic, no matter how small. Just take Vitamin C and D with no known health risks and don't get the shot...

Author:  Glasir [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

Lokiare wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mercola has questioned whether HIV is the cause of AIDS. He has argued instead that the manifestations of AIDS (including opportunistic infections and death) may be the result of "psychological stress" brought on by the belief that HIV is harmful


[Citation Needed]

The cool thing about Wikipedia is that there are citations at the bottom of every page, with in-text links to the relevant ones. It's actually where the whole [citation needed] thing comes from! Wow!

In this case, the link redirects to an irrelevant article from three years later praising the virtues of some algae or another. Happily, the Wayback Machine has a copy of the original, which you can find at this link. The relevant section is titled "A LIKELY EXPLANATION FOR THE "COURSE" OF AIDS".

Author:  Ko [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

Lokiare wrote:


Your arguement is that this jospeh guy is a logical and scientifically-minded person. These quotes show that he is not. boo hoo
In the articles I'm linking he's literally talking about studies done by other scientists. Its irrefutable peer reviewed studies.


Lokiare wrote:
[Citation Needed]


did you even read the article. if you control+f that entire statement you can find the citation right inside the article. 0/10 for effort.

Lokiare wrote:
That's common knowledge. Its been proven accurate over and overaying.


no it isn't. Microwave ovens work by using energy to excite the water molecules in food, causing them to vibrate more and move around more. This causes the food to heat up. There is no chemical change involved. Microwave ovens operate in frequency ranges between radio and infared frequencies. If radio waves were harmful to human beings, we wouldn't last a second on earth.

Lokiare wrote:
Yep, because you can't tell the truth if you are selling something right?


this has nothing to do with what he said. If you deny the fact that suncreen, a product used (aka tested) frequently by many people for the last 50 years, actually does not work, you are an idiot

It's not character assassination if someone is wrong. get over it

such a long post, now I feel like cyclone jerk

Author:  trappedslider [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/policy-statements/information-about-vaccines-and-autism

http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/features/top-13-flu-myths

Also from wiki article

Mercola has also received three warning letters from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for violations of U.S. marketing laws. The first two letters, dated 2005 and 2006, charged Mercola with making false and misleading claims regarding the marketing of several natural supplemental products, which violated the Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act.[4] In the most recent letter, sent in March 2011, Mercola was accused of violating federal law, by making claims about the efficacy of certain uses of a telethermographic camera exceeding those approved by the FDA concerning the diagnostic and therapeutic potential of the device (regulation of such claims being within the purview of the FDA). Dr. Mercola has challenged the FDA's order stating that "We believe that the FDA's warning letter is without merit and is an attempt to regulate the practice of medicine, which the agency does not have the regulatory authority to do. Our use of the thermography device is consistent with its 510(k) clearance for use by health care professionals in their diagnosis and treatment of patients."

and Mercola.com has featured positive presentations of the claims of AIDS denialists, a fringe group which denies the existence of AIDS and/or the role of HIV in causing it

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=771&page=2

Author:  Ko [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

also one thing I forgot to mention, you are absolutely retarded if you think almost thirty thousand people die each year from a flu shot and twice that number of people you say were given flu shots had seizures or brain damage

I think you're the only person here with that problem

Author:  Glasir [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

door (dooooooooooor) wrote:
mercona spins this, misquotes it to make it seem like the vaccinations don't decrease influenza rates in the *people receiving the vaccinations*. this is incredibly intellectually dishonest, and shameful.

Incidentally, this is why yelling "Ad hominem!" doesn't immediately win you an argument -- the accused very well could have some bias or another, and understanding what that is and how it affects his/her (mis)representation of the facts is a crucial part of examining your sources.

Author:  Ko [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

I've got to be honest I think he is going to go full time cube on us and deny everything

Author:  gnomebitten [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

Ko wrote:
Microwave ovens work by using energy to excite the water molecules in food, causing them to vibrate more and move around more. This causes the food to heat up. There is no chemical change involved. Microwave ovens operate in frequency ranges between radio and infared frequencies. If radio waves were harmful to human beings, we wouldn't last a second on earth.



this is only kind of incorrect, microwaves dont excite water molecules to heat up whatever is inside the oven, it just blasts whatevers in there with radiation which bounces off and gets converted into thermal energy as the radiation slows down and imparts its kinetic energy to whats being heated. demonstrably by the microwave having the ability to heat up things without high water content.

this thread is also pointless because Lokiare is never going to change his mind. for all we know, he thinks we are a part of this massive blind liberal agenda to give everyone AIDS and make our children autistic, reactions coming from a very real primal fear of things we don't exactly understand and desperately want to find something to blame for. maybe it would be defensible to believe in anti-immunization pseudoscience if you were a parent terrified that its your fault your child has a developmental disorder. but to that end, consider the following: children used to die of mumps, measles, smallpox, and polio in developed countries all the time. these diseases are easily avoidable through immunization. for decades, children in developed countries did not die of mumps, measles, smallpox, or polio. developmental science evolved and autism became more widely recognized, rather than being diagnosed as "retardation" or "just being slow." people notice children get diagnosed with autism around the same time children receive inoculation; correlation does not mean causation, but if you want to know why your kid has autism its as good as any reason. so people stopped letting their kids get vaccinated. now, kids are getting measles, mumps, and polio. even if it is demonstrable that thiomersal preservatives used in vaccinations can be linked to autism, which peer-reviewed studies have failed to do time and time again, it cannot be within the amounts that make endangering the entire population with diseases like polio or maybe in the future smallpox acceptable.

but again, it serves no purpose. this fellow will think what he will, buy into what he will, buy his special sunscreen and listen to his talk radio and live a proud life, and all we can claim to have gotten out of it was the gross schadenfreude of second-hand embarrassment at his backward ideas.

Author:  Lokiare [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the immediacy and efficacy of flu shots

Glasir wrote:
Lokiare wrote:
Quote:


[Citation Needed]

The cool thing about Wikipedia is that there are citations at the bottom of every page, with in-text links to the relevant ones. It's actually where the whole [citation needed] thing comes from! Wow!

In this case, the link redirects to an irrelevant article from three years later praising the virtues of some algae or another. Happily, the Wayback Machine has a copy of the original, which you can find at this link. The relevant section is titled "A LIKELY EXPLANATION FOR THE "COURSE" OF AIDS".


Reading the original he makes none of those claims.

They are saying that a certain class of drugs that are meant to treat AIDS and HIV can actually cause the same symptoms, not that AIDS and HIV is caused by the drug. Reading skills are key. If you understand what HIV and AIDS is, then you know that many things can cause AIDS (acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome). Basically anything that seriously disrupts the immune system like drugs and viruses other than HIV. AIDS is most commonly associated with HIV because it is the most common cause. The two are very separate things.

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