No Goblins Allowed

Page 77 of 80

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Going through episodes 11 and 12 of Evangelion. These feel mostly like good mid-show continuations without a whole hell of a lot of meta-plot. I mean "Who cut the power?" in 11 and "What is Ikari doing in antarctic hell?" in 12, as well as why Shinji Pilots in 12 are good notes, but these episodes are mostly here it seems for the cool and unique angel fights, which were both really good. These were good episodes. I like this.

Since Darling in the Franxx is really my touchstone for comparison, it seems like the structure of an individual episode in the middle of the series is inverted. In Evangelion, we mostly get some really good action, building plot and character on the side around it. In Franxx the action was still good, but it was a means to the ends of exploring the characters, and by far the secondary consideration. I don't necessarily think one structure is inherently superior, I just think they indicate a difference in focus between the shows. Evangelion is a mechas-versus-monsters sort of show with strong dramatic characters, Franxx was (to me, at least) a character drama with mechas-versus-monsters in it. I'd say this would suggest Evangelion would handle it's plot better, since plot is more the main course, but its ending is infamous enough that even not really knowing any details I know I'm in for a ride when we get into the final arc(s) of Evangelion.

When I've finished Evangelion (At least the series I'll probably do an essay-form comparison of my fresh impressions of Evangelion versus my several-months-of-consideration impressions of Franxx. Since I haven't finished Evangelion I don't know for sure, but it already feels like, as with Puella Magi Madoka Magica versus Yuki Yuna is a Hero, there's potentially a lot to talk about in the comparison even if there's a clear qualitative difference.

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Evangelion Episode 14

After another more or less standard adventure, we get our first real "WTF" Episode (at least in the second half, first half was recap. Was there a production gap?) Apparently Rei's brain, at least synching with Unit 01, is a hell of a bizarre place. And 00 berserks with Shinji just like it did with Rei.

I like the saturation we're getting for Commander Ikari. He's present, and you know probably doing sinister things, but he and his plans aren't totally on display.

Author:  TPmanW [ Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

It's been awhile since I've watched the series Tevish, could you tell me how accurate a reflection this is?

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Well, the show is about Shinji and he does live in a future world (the distant future of 2015. Tokyo-3 is on a hell of a different world line than Hill Valley) that has seen some rising sea levels (due to Antarctica exploding), and he does fight entities that could be described as alien in an Evangelion, which could be described as a robot. He'd sure like to hear that his friends and dad love him, but... yeah, the production there is clearly intended to capture some broad strokes, with a few deliberate errors (New Orleans, "built a robot for his birthday") for comedic effect. It's evoking the Carl Macek style extremely unfaithful pragmatic sort of translation that 4Kids got kind of infamous for, as well as being utterly tone deaf. And you know what? I'd believe that the wrong company at the wrong time (particularly 90's 4kids) would have recut Evangelion and written the dub to be all about robots fighting aliens. It would even be less monstrously disrespectful than some things that actually happened (like the "Warriors of the Wind" cut/dub of Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind).

That said it's hilariously inaccurate in a ton of ways.

Evangelion Episodes 15 & 16

So, the conspiracy angle seems to be ramping up as we learn more about the Evangelions. I mean, we've known they were biomechs since episode 1, but apparently them being based on an angel template is the cover and not the dark truth, and they are possibly sentient and hateful. Also external power is only a suggestion.

Asuka's great. Her relationship with Shinji is weird and funny (unlike his relationship with Rei which is weird and vaguely creepy. Seriously, Shinji, how does one wring out a towel "like a mother"?). Shinji's also pretty great. He's deeply flawed, possibly even dangerously, but he's a well explored character. Gendo Ikari is the scheming intelligent villain the show needs (I say this without it even being technically revealed that he's at all villainous, I'm just assuming). Misato is really growing into her role as caretaker of these kids. Rei is just kinda there.

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Evangelion Episode 17

D-did Rei actually experience and express an emotion in a way that's not "creepy soulless smile"?

Cloak and dagger continues.

I get the distinct feeling that the Fourth Child is both our jock friend (I mean, it would be a shocker if it wasn't after the focus he had this episode) and not long for this world

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Evangelion Episodes 18-20

So, I feel like I'm now in the infamous trippy bit. 18/19 provided a hell of a lot of harsh action (which will be a talking point if I do that in-depth compare-contrast; also Toji survived, which was a little surprising), but 20 was almost all... how do I put this... there are times, and they're increasing, where Evangelion reminds me of Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of the Shinji stuff here was directly inspired by the film's ending. The surreal imagery is, as in 2001's ending, rather justified by the surreal scenario the character is in, and luckily we have cuts to reality and Shinji's inner monologue to help piece it together... but I'm not sure I can say without reservation that this is a strength. 2001 was, throughout its running time, a slow-paced and atmospheric exploration of fairly high concept, even when there was drama with death on the line. Evangelion had psychological material from the beginning, but if I were watching this totally sight-unseen I'd say I was hoping that they could keep up the show's action backbone rather than totally replacing it with the psychological former side-dish. Knowing the show by reputation, I don't hope... I just strap myself in for the ride... though I am kind of wondering where the show goes from here. I think Gendo is going to have to make his play soon, because we can't really go back to business as usual, even if I'd like SOME business as usual on the side.

Briefly, I did like the cuts to Asuka and Rei this episode. They were both very short, and neither girl is taking it very well. Asuka, understandably because she was helpless and shown up when she's got a thing about being the best, Rei because she... survived? She mentioned in 19 that she could be replaced if she died, which I guess hooks in to her very robotic world-view. I guess she sees herself as nothing but a tool. Sorry, still not really endearing... but interesting, at least. We also got some weird plot hints around her, in that Gendo would have named his own daughter Rei, and its her voice largely challenging Shinji in his warped mental merged-with-EVA space. Maybe some of that will pay off?

Random Prediction: Eva 01 is, in some way, Shinji's mom. Probably from the failed salvage 10 years before show (which would about coincide with her death, and we're told there's no body in her grave. I kind of suspected something like this before, with the previous tripping-out-in-Eva scene, but now I have the means and supporting evidence.

Misato makes a really good surrogate mom, though.

Author:  YingLung [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Ironically, Rei was created as a character to be somewhere along the uncanny valley. So if you aren't finding her endearing, and are finding her to be creepy from time to time, that's intended.

Author:  TPmanW [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

It's an effort that seemed to have failed if the sheer quantity of fan art is an indicator.

Author:  YingLung [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

They underestimated the appeal of a pale, passive, cute girl. Which is odd, since pale skin is considered beautiful in Japan, not to mention that a lot of Rei's personality traits are close to the ideal of the Yamato Nadeshiko.

Author:  TPmanW [ Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

I like to think they overestimated the value of personality. But that's just a way of taking pot shots at Rei.

Author:  UselessCommon [ Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Catch this, anime squad!

Author:  Mown [ Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

where is the anime

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Evangelion Episodes 21 & 22

Filing more stuff for my Evangelion/Franxx talk with episode 21. On its own, the window into Gendo's past was... interesting, but didn't explain as much as I would have hoped. It did let us know that apparently Rei with a personality is somehow worse than Rei without a personality, since kid Rei got (nearly) murdered for saying/repeating some pretty awful things. I'm guessing that incident is why she said she could just be replaced if she died earlier.

Something tells me we just broke Asuka and won't be getting her back in reasonable shape.

Author:  YingLung [ Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Mown wrote:
where is the anime

It's a meme that Drake and Josh is an anime.

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

NGE Episodes ?? (I think I miscounted somewhere and the dvd autoplays from where I left off)

The final angel has come and gone and... that could have used more time devoted to it. Rei is dead (for the second time, at least. Rei mk. 3 is up), Kaji is fled, Misato is hardly talking, Asuka is offline, and Shinji has been so out of focus that I've been feeling like he's backslid from the guy we knew before Toji's maiming. There's not a lot left, really -- SEELE and Gendo have to play their cards out about instrumentality this and Adam or Lilith that and... you know, I know there's a gambit pileup going on, but I don't know a whole lot about the gambits in play.

It's been a good show so far, but its ambition has absolutely been stronger than its execution... so I'm glad I know that Rebuild exists.

Edit: this was 23 & 24. I thought I had 3 left, but I only had 2. That's where the miscounting was.

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

So, I finished Neon Genesis Evangelion.

That ending was about as weird as I'd been led to believe. It's like someone read and regurgitated a lot of Nietzsche and Descartes while high and/or drunk (speaking as someone who has been neither). I did kind of follow what was going on, thanks to the previous episode with the last, humanoid angel: Gendo must have triggered "Instrumentality" by doing something or other with Rei, which after all its talked up apparently dissolves the natural AT-field barriers between peoples souls and lets their consciousness exist without form or meaning or... something, heck, I suppose I only half followed it. We see Misato and Ritsuko shot dead (Gendo murdered them off screen I guess?) in one of the last "reality" shots, but they're there throughout Shinji's wild ride and, along with the also deceased Yui Ikari, present to applaud Shinji when he self-realizes at last (or some version of them, depending on just how solipsistic you read the very tail end). Did people get resurrected? Are they in heaven or an alternate universe that might as well be? It's up to interpretation, I'm sure, but that's not always a strength. Still, it was nearly an hour of odd philosophical monologues over warped no-budget imagery conveying mostly the uncomfortable mood of the characters being examined -- Misato and Asuka in the penultimate episode, Shinji in the finale (with a little of Rei sprinkled throughout).

I know it's symbolic and means stuff, but I'm left feeling a little... empty. The show ended, it didn't really conclude. Not enough effort was put into making sure the climax had weight and meaning based on what came before it. The character arcs concluded... sort of... but the show as a whole, the main story? It doesn't feel like there was a lot of purpose to the defense against the Angels, the NERV/SEELE backstabbing fest, and so on. It never really amounted to anything. I feel like you could have gone into this final arc shortly after the establishment, and it would have held the same weight. And while I don't mind doing some work to put things together, the storytelling doesn't really... tell a story here at the end. It conveys an experience, which has its own value, but Evangelion's meat was more story driven than it was character driven...

Overall, the show was great. But nobody was kidding when they said the ending was insane and potentially not even technically good.

Author:  TPmanW [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Yeah that ending is... it's an ending. Sort of. Some people (I believe Keeper was among them) hold the ending up as a masterpiece, but I don't buy that. It's mediocre philosophy on a background of sub-mediocre imagery. Of course, it's also why the show is as famous and loved as it is today. People's questions kept them interested which led to the movie retelling of the show's end and then because that didn't explain everything there was demand enough for the Rebuild series. I think the creator's caught on at some point and started going out of their way to not clarify anything. In the beginning I think the ambiguity was just a result of budgetary restraints and creative breakdown.

, the storytelling doesn't really... tell a story here at the end. It conveys an experience, which has its own value, but Evangelion's meat was more story driven than it was character driven...

Overall, the show was great. But nobody was kidding when they said the ending was insane and potentially not even technically good.

As well put as it's ever been.

One thing that I didn't learn about until years after I'd seen the series that I think clarifies a lot is the Kabalist influence. In short, an ancient school of Judaic philosophy held that all creation once lived in perfect unity. That's what the whole instrumentality thing was about. If you don't know about that beforehand it just looks like the Illuminati banded together to solve their shared social anxiety (that whole hedgehog's dilemma thing). Learning that really put Eva in a better light for me.

Author:  YingLung [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

It's been a while, but I seem to remember the End of Evangelion movie to be a bit more fitting as an ending. If nothing else, Asuka gets a really good fight sequence.
I'm pretty sure it's Seele's forces invading that kill Misato.
Instrumentality starts when Adam (weird thing in Gendo's hand) becomes one with Lilith. In essence, tasting both the fruit of knowledge, and the fruit of life, becoming as gods. Not really sure why it had to happen when it did, maybe the angels could interfere/take control of the process if they were still around. Instrumentality removes the barrier between human souls, forming a sea of consciousness, reuniting the lilim into a single angel. I think the idea is, humanity spawned from Lilith, grew large, and then when they are combined again, they have more power than a single angel normally would. Not sure. Seele wanted to harness that power to build a perfect world. Gendo pretty much wanted his wife back. At the end, they come into conflict over who should control instrumentality, and Rei goes off and hands the reins to Shinji.

It's implied that Shinji is still wrestling with the power that he has gained, possibly creating different scenarios to try and find some meaning or purpose, I think. It may be that the events of the show are merely one such scenario. I think the "congratulations" scene is made of the selves of others as seen from Shinji's perspective, rather than actual resurrections. Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the ending. It's worth noting that Hideaki Anno was struggling with/expressing depression during a lot of the show's production.

Author:  TPmanW [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

Huh, I thought Asuka's big fight scene was in the original series too. That really does leave here character off on a downer then, huh? It's probably my favourite fight in anime too.

As for the director's depression? You know how Shinji tries to kill Asuka? That's just what he figured the natural reaction to be merged into the universal consciousness was. You'd be driven to acts of violence towards your loved ones.

Overall I give Eva 5 out of 1 Franxx.

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anime

You see, the show not only didn't have a final battle for Asuka (I really could have used that, but I do have Death&Rebirth, End, and Rebuild to look forward to), the last we hear from anything even presuming to be core Asuka being her total collapse as "Case 2" in Episode 25, but there's also...

- Pretty much no indication of how Instrumentality was triggered (Gendo tells Rei it's time and then we just enter the wild ride for good)
- Very little indication of Adam. We saw the preserved embryo of the real Adam when Kaji delivered it back in episode 8 or 9, but a thing on Gendo's hand? The only thing in the show, not the movies, about his hands is that he burned them rescuing Rei from a screwed up and superheated entry plug. (and that was before the show, and thus before he recieved Adam from Kaji) Throughout the show, Adam is talked up, but most of that talk is actually addressed at Lilith, the thing crucified in Terminal Dogma.
- No talk of Fruits of Knowledge/Life. There's some talk of becoming God, but no indication why or how this is supposed to happen
- No actual indication of SEELE's play. They say they're going to burn Gendo in their last scene (back in episode 24), but we don't see it happen, and when we see Misato and Ritsuko dead there's no real indication of who killed them except that it comes mostly on the heels of a cut to Gendo.
- No real way to discern how Instrumentality was controlled. I didn't read it as power given to Shinji by Rei, I pretty much just figured that was his experience with whatever uniqueness remained to him after Instrumentality hit, perhaps leaving him as the only "human" by his rejection of others.

So out of what YingLung describes, I got approximately
"Instrumentality removes the barrier between human souls, forming a sea of consciousness, reuniting the lilim into a single angel*. [...] Gendo pretty much wanted his wife back."
*Kind of.

I'm not done with the franchise. The DVDs I've got (which I'm just going to call the NERV edition, since NERV's logo is plastered over them where the studio or distributor logo would usually go) has all five currently existing movies... but I'm going to take a break before digging into those, in part because I only want to watch movies on the weekends, and then probably one a weekend. And before I dig into any of the remake material, I want to put my thoughts together for something of a big essay on Eva versus Franxx (ft. Madoka v. Yuki Yuna and maybe Madoka + Mirai Nikki v. Magical Girl Raising Project), while I have just the shows to compare.

(EDIT: Some of what I missed might not be the show's fault. NERV edition here doesn't translate on-screen text... which included the important-looking title cards that characters conversed with throughout the ending. Usually, like hearing half a phone call, I was able to put together what the other side must have said, especially with the very repetitive lines, but there might have been some nuggets in that I didn't get)

Page 77 of 80 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group