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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:50 pm 
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https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/revealing-secret-lair-2019-11-25

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And: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/secret-lair-recap-2019-11-25

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Long story short, WotC is going to try and sell extremely limited runs of some cards they think you will want with cool, odd, or funny art. These will basically be flash sales for 24 hours on the Hasbro website (a notoriously "stable" platform for these sorts of sales). You could happily fight the online hordes for the privilege to pay $30+ for five snow-covered lands, or Bitterblossom and four tokens!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:33 pm 
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No fighting hordes, it says right there in the article, everyone has a cap of 10, and they will have enough for everyone as long as you order within that 24 hour window. Unless I misunderstood

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:33 pm 
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yeah idk how this supports scalpers


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:53 am 
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Past performance for these sorts of ventures has lead me to believe that what will actually happen is that the rush to get these limited products within the short time allotted will end up causing the Hasbro website to crash, many orders will somehow fail to go through properly, and only the lucky folk who managed to get their orders filled will actually receive these items, some of whom are counting on all the before listed issues to cause mass scarcity and desperate customers who weren't so lucky to sell their extras to.

Now, if I'm wrong and WotC has learned from their last few abysmal online sales roll-outs, then I'll be interested to see how these things fair in the secondary market.

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You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:35 am 
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AzureShade wrote:
WotC has learned ... online


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:46 pm 
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They've specifically stated that these aren't limited print runs, just a limited purchase window. They will print to order for everyone who submits an order within the 24 hour window. That alone should make this less of a disaster than the Mythic Editions where if you ran into server issues for 2 minutes it was then too late to try again.

There might be a rush at the start of the day, because the people who order first will get the stuff that's already been printed, meaning it will arrive sooner, but past that, things should level out and be a bit more stable.

I'm planning to get the Bitterblossom one because I was already planning on buying a Bitterblossom for a Faerie commander deck, and this one is cheaper. Plus it comes with cool tokens!

While I'm not personally interested in the other products here, I think it's a cool experiment, and I like a lot of the art. This print-to-order thing seems like a way for WotC to test some new kinds of products without having to guess ahead of time how much inventory to print.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:51 pm 
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If this is successful and we see more print to order products a lot of people are gonna be very happy.

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I never take anytihng Lily says seriously, except for when I take it personally. Then it's personal.
WotC_Ethan wrote:
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:31 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
If this is successful and we see more print to order products a lot of people are gonna be very happy.

If this is successful then wotc will consider themselves justified in charging exorbitant prices for a couple of cards and I will be pretty sad. Selling a single card and four tokens for $30 is ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Mown wrote:
LilyStorm wrote:
If this is successful and we see more print to order products a lot of people are gonna be very happy.

If this is successful then wotc will consider themselves justified in charging exorbitant prices for a couple of cards and I will be pretty sad. Selling a single card and four tokens for $30 is ridiculous.

At least it costs less than regular Bitterblossoms do? I mean, I wouldn’t mind if WotC started printing and selling cheap singles, but I doubt they’d intentionally devalue their cards like that. I bet selling Bitterblossom at $30 will do more to bring the price down than reprinting it in Masters sets at mythic ever did.

I recognize that “they’ve done worse things” isn’t an amazing argument, but also... the TCG business model has always been kind of absurd, and I don’t see that changing as long as it keeps making money.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Yeah most of these seem like a fair price, they certainly could be cheaper but selling cards directly to the consumer is a step in the right direction

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I never take anytihng Lily says seriously, except for when I take it personally. Then it's personal.
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People, buy more stuff.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:56 pm 
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Oh boy more flashy garbage that people will lap up like dogs and beg for more


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:39 am 
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I think this is a good product for several reasons. First, as mentioned, most of the drops are no more expensive than getting the the cards normally would be. Second, the point of this is the experimental art. I love every single piece in this product, but I totally understand why they couldn't put this kind of art in regular sets. Just knowing that they are seeking out venues for unique at concepts makes me happy and is more than enough of a reason for me to hope this succeeds. Not that I'm going to buy anything, because I'm poor.

If you don't like it, why do you care? Other people buying this product will not affect you in any way except maybe bringing down the prices of some staple cards. How could this be a bad thing?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:12 am 
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At least it costs less than regular Bitterblossoms do? I mean, I wouldn’t mind if WotC started printing and selling cheap singles, but I doubt they’d intentionally devalue their cards like that. I bet selling Bitterblossom at $30 will do more to bring the price down than reprinting it in Masters sets at mythic ever did.

Can we acknowledge that Bitterblossom only costs so much in the first place because of wotc's unwillingness to make the card accessible to players? You won't get any compliments from me for selling an overpriced product that's slightly cheaper than the other overpriced equivalent when you have the monopoly on both.
Aaarrrgh wrote:
If you don't like it, why do you care? Other people buying this product will not affect you in any way except maybe bringing down the prices of some staple cards. How could this be a bad thing?

How could it be a bad thing that the public validates a company using exploitative business strategies and abusing the secondary market that they're responsible for in the first place, marginalizing local game stores by moving more of their business to an online platform I can't use because it doesn't ship to my country, and putting their appealing and experimental artwork behind additional paywalls while enforcing their generic soullless hyper-conventional fantasy artwork in their mainline products? I do believe you can figure it out.

I think Eldraine did a pretty good job of providing vanity items in an exciting and accessible way (in terms of regular boosters, not deluxe boosters). I think this is an exploitative consumer-unfriendly cash-grab that abuses their own unwillingness to make an accessible game.
Wasn't the point of modern to make an eternal format that wasn't constrained by the reserved list? Seems like we made an artificial reserved list by barely reprinting format defining cards so as not to hurt their "prestige", oops. I guess we'll introduce pioneer since the entry cost to modern has become too high.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:25 pm 
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I'm absolutely with Mown, this is another big step in a direction that really worries me.

Products like this do nothing to win me back as a customer, but they do a lot to make me lose respect for WotC and alienate me even more. And that's just my personal opinion, but I think no Magic card outside of silver border land should look like those goblins or those damn cats.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:01 pm 
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Aaarrrgh wrote:

If you don't like it, why do you care? Other people buying this product will not affect you in any way except maybe bringing down the prices of some staple cards. How could this be a bad thing?


people care because they're instinctively invested in others' experiences in addition to their own. The criticisms of the people in this thread seem largely based around the idea that this product will somehow end up hurting other people, and they care about other people so they dislike it on that basis. Rather than harm in and of itself, they might also find the process injust, in that they might think people they /dislike/ (like rich WotC investors) are profiting off behaviours that aren't productive.

A better example of this kind of distaste would be distaste for someone deciding to take over a public spring and charge people for drinking from it. The people might be happy to get a drink from the spring and willing to pay money for it, but the behaviour might still be seen as wrong and exploitative.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:51 am 
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First, regarding accessibility: Bitterblossom is a powerful cards which could severely impact any play environment it exists in. How would you suggest making it accessible? They can't easily print it in a standard set, and they already gave it not one but two masters reprints. The only way to make it more accessible without affecting the rest of their product would be to print it to order. Which is what they are doing. Yes, they are printing it to order for a very high price, but this is also a brand new business model for them with a lot of hurdles which don't exist in their regular product.

Second, tying in to the last part of what I did above, this is a first attempt at a crazy concept. Of course it is primarily aimed at the big spenders. That way they minimize the risk. Based on the feedback from this venture they might eventually make these for us common folk too. As you said, Eldraine is making some premium art more accessible, and it seems like they are planning to continue with that model in standard sets from now on. The issue with that is that there's less incentive for the "whales" (the people who have way too much money to spend on their hobbies) to throw money at the premium products now that anyone can open them in a lucky pack. So WotC are giving them something else to placate them. There are so many ways to enjoy MtG, and it is nearly impossible to make the entire fanbase happy. But just because this product is made to make someone other than you happy that doesn't mean they are planning to stop doing the things that are for you. There's just no way to do it all.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:29 am 
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Aaarrrgh wrote:
First, regarding accessibility: Bitterblossom is a powerful cards which could severely impact any play environment it exists in. How would you suggest making it accessible? They can't easily print it in a standard set, and they already gave it not one but two masters reprints. The only way to make it more accessible without affecting the rest of their product would be to print it to order. Which is what they are doing. Yes, they are printing it to order for a very high price, but this is also a brand new business model for them with a lot of hurdles which don't exist in their regular product.

Is the hurdle being able to sell it directly to customers instead of through stores and being able to print it exactly to demand?
Are we going to pretend that wotc are going to make these things more affordable if it's successful? Have you seen the price trends for their masters products? It only took like half a year for the last reprinting of bitterblossom to become irrelevant, even though the card sees practically no serious play.

Aaarrrgh wrote:
Second, tying in to the last part of what I did above, this is a first attempt at a crazy concept. Of course it is primarily aimed at the big spenders. That way they minimize the risk. Based on the feedback from this venture they might eventually make these for us common folk too. As you said, Eldraine is making some premium art more accessible, and it seems like they are planning to continue with that model in standard sets from now on. The issue with that is that there's less incentive for the "whales" (the people who have way too much money to spend on their hobbies) to throw money at the premium products now that anyone can open them in a lucky pack. So WotC are giving them something else to placate them. There are so many ways to enjoy MtG, and it is nearly impossible to make the entire fanbase happy. But just because this product is made to make someone other than you happy that doesn't mean they are planning to stop doing the things that are for you. There's just no way to do it all.

Are you trying to tell me that the excessive cost is a feature because it makes the product more exclusive? If this product is designed to make someone happy, it's wotc. I am the target audience of this product, I want the graveyard one. I just don't want to get scammed doing it and encourage **** business practices. I already do that enough on kickstarter, but at least there I feel like I get my money's worth, and the price actually comes from the actual production costs and not a company's hesitation to reduce their ability to exploit market hype for future products.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:15 pm 
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On the plus side, it seems we are a couple of days into this venture and I haven't seen the Internet melt down over website errors and lost orders so things are already technically going smoother for this sale that I expected.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:28 am 
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My order is already on its way

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