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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:56 pm 
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1 x Aryel, Knight of Windgrace

Creature
1 x Stoneforge Mystic
1 x Bloodcrazed Paladin
1 x Knight of Dawn
1 x Crusading Knight
1 x Knight of Dusk
1 x Kinsbaile Cavalier
1 x Knight of the White Orchid
1 x Sigiled Paladin
1 x White Knight
1 x Black Knight
1 x Knight Exemplar
1 x Mirran Crusader
1 x Knight of Glory
1 x Knight of Infamy
1 x Forerunner of the Legion
1 x Dauntless Bodyguard
1 x Knight of Grace
1 x Knight of Malice
1 x Kwende, Pride of Femeref
1 x Danitha Capashen, Paragon
1 x Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
1 x Accorder Paladin
1 x Hero of Bladehold
1 x Blood-Cursed Knight
1 x Relief Captain
1 x Benalish Marshal
1 x Mercenary Knight
1 x Arrogant Bloodlord
1 x Thalia's Lancers
1 x Vona, Butcher of Magan
1 x Cabal Paladin
1 x Josu Vess, Lich Knight
1 x Sun Titan

Enchantment
1 x Phyrexian Arena
1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x True Conviction
1 x Phyrexian Reclamation
1 x Dictate of Heliod
1 x Dictate of Erebos
1 x History of Benalia

Land
1 x Orzhov Basilica
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
10 x Plains
1 x Command Tower
8 x Swamp
1 x Vault of the Archangel
1 x Cavern of Souls
1 x Godless Shrine
1 x Orzhov Guildgate
1 x Tainted Field
1 x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 x Temple of Silence
1 x Scoured Barrens
1 x Caves of Koilos
1 x Forsaken Sanctuary
1 x Concealed Courtyard
1 x Path of Ancestry
1 x Unclaimed Territory
1 x Fetid Heath
1 x Isolated Chapel

Artifact
1 x Orzhov Signet
1 x Deathrender
1 x Sword of Vengeance
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Orzhov Cluestone
1 x Sword of the Animist
1 x Stoneforge Masterwork
1 x Bloodforged Battle-Axe
1 x Heirloom Blade
1 x Forebear's Blade

Instant
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Utter End
1 x Anguished Unmaking
1 x Entomb

Sorcery
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Austere Command
1 x Buried Alive
1 x Rout
1 x Mastermind's Acquisition
1 x Vindicate

Planeswalker
1 x Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

I saw it and had to try my hand at making it. Any suggestions are welcome.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Crib Swap is an okay removal spell that has a nice combo with Haakon. You seem to be running a few tutors for Haakon, so it might be worth it. (Nameless Inversion works, too, but that seems less good in commander.)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:34 pm 
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totally forgot about that, yeah going to have to edit that in.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Hope you don't mind if I ramble here.

General EDH deckbuilding guidelines I like to follow (courtesy of the Command Zone podcast):
10 card draw
10 ramp
5 spot removal
5 board wipe
38+ lands
You don't need to use them, but I find that it helps a lot when I follow these guidelines.

On to other suggestions.
Does Arrogant Bloodlord really work in EDH? I would think it would run afoul of tokens.

I have a 60 card knight deck that likes to run Concerted Effort to take advantage of the various keywords that some knights can get like Skyhunter Skirmisher.
For an EDH deck you can't build it as part of your key strategy, only being one card and all, but it could be fun.
Similarly Odric, Lunarch Marshal does the same for a few other keywords.

Thinking about how EDH tends to play out (at least in my playgroup), you may wish for some larger/flying/evasive knights, such as Drogskol Cavalry, Deathless Ancient (you appear to have a small vampire subtheme), or Knight of Sursi.

The other thing my 60 card knight deck likes to do is run Weight of Conscience. Tap 2 knights to exile the enchanted creature, then use Sun Titan to repeatedly bring the enchantment back. It's not going to be a consistent method of repeatable removal for you, but it's an option (admittedly probably worse than Haakon+Crib Swap).

Stillmoon Cavalier is absurd.
Dauthi Mercenary and Soltari Crusader avoid most defenses with the potential for large chunks of damage.

Pfffft, I forgot about these next ones:
Eastern Paladin
Western Paladin
Northern Paladin
Southern Paladin
Pentarch Paladin
Be warned though, those critters may well put a target on your back, particularly against multicolored opponents.

Kabira Vindicator is another anthem on a knight.
Knight-Captain of Eos+Elspeth, Knight-Errant, or better yet Elspeth, Sun's Champion, is a VERY solid defensive position to have (until the inevitable board wipe anyway).
Knights of the Black Rose is a personal suggestion from me because I love what the Monarch mechanic does to a game of commander, really moves the game along.
If you enjoy thoroughly breaking the color pie there's Order of the Sacred Torch.
Zhalfirin Commander for more knight tribal synergy (though it may not be efficient enough to be worth it).
Auriok Steelshaper is another potential anthem.
Waylay for flavorful ambush tactics (can also be used in conjunction with Aryel's second ability to take down bigger things).
Magewright's Stone more activations of Aryel
Thousand-Year Elixir more activations plus earlier/faster activation


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:45 pm 
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I was thinking of adding more draw considering that I have one consistent and one sporadic draw in the deck and could see running out of power in hand quickly. AOE nukes though in a theme deck like this unless I move to more enchantment or artifact removal seem counter intuitive. Other than hallowed burial to get rid of indestructible I cant think of another that wouldn't hurt me more overall than my opponents.

Arrogant is really only there for the body. He is literally the first to be pulled for space.

Concerted effort....how could I have missed this, ugh yeah that's definitely being considered hard. Was also considering the Odric 2.0 cause of what he can do and a braces belt approach seems like a winner.

Weight is too cute for the deck. Interesting but not efficient for the needs considering I have 4 vindicate effects and one of them repeatable.

Drogskol is on my radar and I know I don't have much High End overall but the CC to body ratio is kinda poor. Admittedly he does attack over which is a plus. Same for Deathless who may or may not go in. By himself not bad, not great either. Just don't know if I have enough vamps to consistently pull him from grave when I want him. Sursi's body to ability ratio even with suspend just doesn't float me.

The compass Paladins were considered but they are slow...extremely slow. Even with 1000 year and no true ability to tutor either out consistently it just seems like waiting for the inevitable wrath effect or a targeted removal just waiting to happen. Dauthi and Soltari are probably going in considering I missed shadow there. Free hits are free hits. With my equipment theme Auriok steelshaper is yeah should be in here. Stillmoon has one BIG problem in that its a big old mana sink. I mean after a time sure you have not much to play but in a multiplayer game I think its just too much unless you can ritual somehow each turn.

Probably going to add the Knight-Captain and a Elspeth cause as I said I don't have that much of a high end. They are good utility in themselves.

Vindicator is just not happening. I would play another type of anthem effect first. 10 mana to get to lvl 2, even split across turns is just to much fiddly. Even in commander.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:52 pm 
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How about "pay 1 life to counterspell" knights ?
Or a knight that gets +1/+1 for each enemy Swamp ?
(And you have just the land to make him 20/20)
Or Swords of X and Y ?

This deck looks WAY too optimized for my taste.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:48 pm 
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The thing about board wipes you have to remember is that when they're in your deck, YOU get to choose when to press that big red button. If you're looking to wipe the board AND not hit your own team you pay a premium in mana for them. I think you get access to Plague Wind, In Garruk's Wake, and Kindred Dominance in this deck for that kind of effect. OOH, you do also get Hex though! However, something like Day of Judgment, Akroma's Vengeance, and Merciless Eviction are still VERY useful even if they hit your own things because you get to time it so that it hurts your opponents much more than it hurts you.

I just find that ~5 ways to wipe the board seems to be about the right number in order to find one or two in a given game provided you have the card draw. You can stick to the expensive, one sided ones if you like I suppose, but I think you'll find you want a cheaper one or two.

Speaking of card draw, here's some options you could run in your deck.
draw options


Just looking to give you options. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Crusading Knight is in here already. Considering order, but its a very narrow card in some respects.

hrrrm kindred and maybe akroma for catchalls that at lest screw my opponents as much or more than me seems like a thing. Urg this is gonna take some thought to get what I want VS need in here.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:05 pm 
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1 x Aryel, Knight of Windgrace

Creature
1 x Bloodcrazed Paladin
1 x Dauthi Mercenary
1 x Soltari Crusader
1 x Knight of Dawn
1 x Crusading Knight
1 x Knight of Dusk
1 x Kinsbaile Cavalier
1 x Knight of the White Orchid
1 x Knight-Captain of Eos
1 x White Knight
1 x Black Knight
1 x Knight Exemplar
1 x Mirran Crusader
1 x Knight of Glory
1 x Knight of Infamy
1 x Bygone Bishop
1 x Forerunner of the Legion
1 x Knight of Grace
1 x Knight of Malice
1 x Danitha Capashen, Paragon
1 x Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
1 x Accorder Paladin
1 x Hero of Bladehold
1 x Blood-Cursed Knight
1 x Relief Captain
1 x Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 x Benalish Marshal
1 x Mercenary Knight
1 x Drogskol Cavalry
1 x Thalia's Lancers
1 x Vona, Butcher of Magan
1 x Champion of Dusk
1 x Cabal Paladin
1 x Josu Vess, Lich Knight
1 x Sun Titan

Enchantment
1 x Phyrexian Arena
1 x Concerted Effort
1 x True Conviction
1 x Dictate of Heliod
1 x Call the Bloodline
1 x Arguel's Blood Fast
1 x History of Benalia

Land
1 x Orzhov Basilica
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 x Plains
1 x Command Tower
8 x Swamp
1 x Vault of the Archangel
1 x Godless Shrine
1 x Orzhov Guildgate
1 x Tainted Field
1 x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 x Temple of Silence
1 x Myriad Landscape
1 x Scoured Barrens
1 x Caves of Koilos
1 x Forsaken Sanctuary
1 x Concealed Courtyard
1 x Path of Ancestry
1 x Unclaimed Territory
1 x Arch of Orazca
1 x Fetid Heath
1 x Isolated Chapel

Artifact
1 x Orzhov Signet
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Sword of the Animist
1 x Stoneforge Masterwork
1 x Bloodforged Battle-Axe
1 x Herald's Horn
1 x Heirloom Blade
1 x Vanquisher's Banner
1 x Forebear's Blade

Instant
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Crib Swap
1 x Utter End
1 x Anguished Unmaking

Sorcery
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Austere Command
1 x Buried Alive
1 x Kindred Dominance
1 x Vindicate

Planeswalker
1 x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar


Take Two. I couldn't cram in all I really wanted...... But I think I have gotten closer to a ideal build, maybe.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:33 am 
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Light from Within would be hi or miss here, but some of your guys get +2 or +3 off it. Hilarious at least.
Springjack Shepherd and Umbral Stalker may as well get a mention too.
Pentarch Paladin
Cairn Wanderer is great with Concerted effort.
Mirror Entity will turn all your little dudes into big dudes, and spread the tribal love.
Skeletal Changeling is a good blocker.
Paladin of Atonement
Gideon's Phalanx Go wide. Go indestructible.
Righteous Confluence
Kabira Vindicator is solid gold.
Lightwielder Paladin
Paladin en-Vec - Twice the protection of a normal knight.
Stillmoon Cavalier
Markov Dreadknight - Haakon support?
Balan, Wandering Knight- although I like anthems over equipment in your deck.
Elenda, the Dusk Rose
Fiendslayer Paladin

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:28 am 
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Ill say it before and Ill say it again, Kabira Vindicator is bad. 10 mana even across a few turns for a +1 effect isn't worth it. Stillmoon is too much of a mana sink to work correctly. Single player and such not bad at all. Multiplayer its just horrible unless you can produce mana every turn including your opponents.

Paladin of Atonement and Markov Dreadknight seem really good and I do need to throw in another discard effect there, so its on my list of improvements now. While I was thinking of it after I posted I had a few cards that caught my attention, Recruiter of the Guard seems like it would hit alot of cards here, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad Sorin, Grim Nemesis caught my eye as well and may be more efficant token/anthem generators overall.

My only problems with Fiendslayer and Paladin en-vec are I have a kinda cloggy 3cc spot atm. I know that some of the cards creature wise are speculative, but I get more out of some of the abilities on those rather than the ones on these two. If I had to choose one it would be Fiendslayer since lifelink first strike pro from opponents is better than just double pro and first strike. Lightwielder is interesting and I may need to screw around with it a bit first before I say yea or nay.

Light from within was in my own options pile and I may drop the new Forebear blade for it since it does seem like it might do better overall on everything since a good chunk of this deck has ww in its costs. Depends on how sorin hashes out.

I think on changelings that mirror entity would be the only include. Dont get me wrong the other two are good in some ways and giving all my creatures regen and such would be nice. Its just not that efficiant. Cairn is a odd ball as well since things have to be dead in order for the things that are alive to get the benifits from. Meaning I'd have to be on the downside of the interactions rather than just having things in play.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:29 am 
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Great job on version 2 of the deck. I like it.

Creatures 35
Non-Creatures 27
Lands 37

Wipes 3
Austere Command
Kindred Dominance
Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Spot 5 (plus 1 repeatable on the commander)
Vona, Butcher of Magan
Crib Swap
Utter End
Anguished Unmaking
Vindicate

Card Flow 9
Bygone Bishop
Champion of Dusk
Phyrexian Arena
Arguel's Bloodfast
Path of Ancestry may not actually draw you a card, but the number of times it scrys for you over the course of the game more than makes up for that
Arch of Orazca
Herald's Horn I know it's only conditional draw, but it digs you closer to any other cards so it counts. Conversely Heirloom Blade only digs you towards another creature which, while useful, will not always be what you're looking for, so it doesn't make this list.
Vanquisher's Banner
Demonic Tutor I purposely skipped Vampiric Tutor because it doesn't actually put the card in your hand so you can't use whatever answer or threat you find right away. Vamp tutor is totally versatile, but I wouldn't call it card flow

Ramp 7
Knight of the White Orchid
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Myriad Landscape
Orzhov Signet
Sol Ring
Sword of the Animist
Herald's Horn May not work on every card in your deck, but it hits enough to be relevant

Consider adding a land (bringing your count up to the recommended 38 in the process) such as Tectonic Edge, Ghost Quarter, or Dust Bowl to help you deal with opposing problematic lands such as Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun, Spires of Orazca, or Reliquary Tower. You do have Vindicate, but another way to hit opposing lands and adding a land to your land count in the process couldn't hurt.

Your ramp package is still a little lacking for my tastes.

Your board wipes are a little light too, but I'm inclined to say you're prooooobably still ok on that front given that you have a repeatable removal effect on your commander.

Speaking of ramp. While this next idea wouldn't be consistent enough for me to actually add it to the ramp list you could add a more consistent ramp mode to your Sun Titan by adding in some more fetch lands like Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, or Marsh Flats. You can probably afford to cut some basics for those 3, but I wouldn't necessarily go any deeper than that. You need enough basics to be fetched.

As an aside I want to say that I do like your prodigious use of dual lands because you have a LOT of double color weight cards.

Get rid of Mercenary Knight. It is literally only useful for pitching Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. You can do better.

Beyond adding 2-3 more ramp spells, one more land, and squeaking in one more cardflow card if you can, I'd say your deck looks pretty functional as is. Everything after this point looks to be down to personal taste, how things shake out in testing, and what angles of attack you want to push on.

Sweet deck.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:49 am 
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1 x Aryel, Knight of Windgrace

Creature
1 x Recruiter of the Guard
1 x Bloodcrazed Paladin
1 x Paladin of Atonement
1 x Sun Titan
1 x Knight of Dawn
1 x Crusading Knight
1 x Knight of Dusk
1 x Knight of Meadowgrain
1 x Kinsbaile Cavalier
1 x Knight of the White Orchid
1 x Knight-Captain of Eos
1 x Black Knight
1 x White Knight
1 x Knight Exemplar
1 x Mirran Crusader
1 x Knight of Glory
1 x Knight of Infamy
1 x Bygone Bishop
1 x Knight of Grace
1 x Knight of Malice
1 x Danitha Capashen, Paragon
1 x Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
1 x Accorder Paladin
1 x Hero of Bladehold
1 x Blood-Cursed Knight
1 x Markov Dreadknight
1 x Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 x Sanctum Seeker
1 x Benalish Marshal
1 x Drogskol Cavalry
1 x Thalia's Lancers
1 x Vona, Butcher of Magan
1 x Lightwielder Paladin
1 x Champion of Dusk
1 x Josu Vess, Lich Knight

Enchantment
1 x Phyrexian Arena
1 x Concerted Effort
1 x True Conviction
1 x Phyrexian Reclamation
1 x Dictate of Heliod
1 x Call the Bloodline
1 x Arguel's Blood Fast
1 x History of Benalia

Land
1 x Orzhov Basilica
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 x Plains
1 x Command Tower
8 x Swamp
1 x Vault of the Archangel
1 x Godless Shrine
1 x Orzhov Guildgate
1 x Tainted Field
1 x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 x Temple of Silence
1 x Myriad Landscape
1 x Scoured Barrens
1 x Caves of Koilos
1 x Forsaken Sanctuary
1 x Concealed Courtyard
1 x Path of Ancestry
1 x Unclaimed Territory
1 x Arch of Orazca
1 x Fetid Heath
1 x Isolated Chapel

Artifact
1 x Orzhov Signet
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Sword of the Animist
1 x Herald's Horn
1 x Vanquisher's Banner

Instant
1 x Crib Swap
1 x Utter End
1 x Anguished Unmaking

Sorcery
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Hallowed Burial
1 x Austere Command
1 x Buried Alive
1 x Righteous Confluence
1 x Collective Effort
1 x Kindred Dominance
1 x Vindicate

Planeswalker
1 x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Sorin, Grim Nemesis


Take three.
Man is it hard to keep from devolving into a pure mono or close to mono build. Especially the spells.

@flyheight
I don't know if I could cram in one more land without taking a utility card away. Admittedly I might do a panic land like reliquary tower, just add another plains, or a city of brass style land. While a fetch package might help I can see myself getting kinda sorta hurt as well. But that's what testing is for :) . Its sad I actually had to get rid of both vampiric and the vampire tutor in this deck, but I realized recruiter of the guard works well with many of my creatures. While I do have Vampiric Tutor I really hate to keep switching cards from deck to deck and at $40 a pop buying another seemed excessive, and there are not many in my area for trade. Another issue I was finding is that my 3cc spot is overflowing with options. Even in commander you have to balance out what goes where. Between Recruiter and Sorin I may have shored up the draw spells some more. Had to put Phyrexian reclamation back in since it hits into opposing wrath effects. Cant believe I didn't realize this but Thalia's Lancers is actually able to find Urborg, Nykthos, and Arguel's Bloodfast.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Nice update.

Should playtesting reveal that you want more ramp here are some playable options of varying usefulness:
Not 3 cmc:
Chrome Mox
Phyrexian Tower

Paradise Mantle
Springleaf Drum

Charcoal Diamond
Coldsteel Heart
Corrupted Grafstone
Dowsing Dagger/Lost Vale
Fellwar Stone
Marble Diamond
Pillar of Origins <- I'm iffy on this one. It only works on creatures, just like Herald's Horn, but unlike the Horn it doesn't also draw you cards
Pyramid of the Pantheon
Sphere of the Suns

Khalni Gem <- not the best, but it's functional

Gilded Lotus

Caged Sun <- you have some small ramp, having some larger ramp is nice too

3 cmc:
Chromatic Lantern <- MASSIVE color fixing for your color weight heavy deck
Coalition Relic <- This just got a reprint in Masters 25 so is at a lower price than it has been recently
Commander's Sphere <- also draws a card
Darksteel Ingot <- survives most artifact board wipes


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Posts: 307
I really need to STAY AWAY from the gatherer and EDREC :)
I found this stuff,
Markov Crusader
Ravos, Soultender
Sidar Jabari
Campaign of Vengeance
Behind the Scenes
Radiant Destiny

And Chromantic will go in here. Funnily enough I broke down my 5 color allies for this deck and it had one of those in it and I completely spaced I had it. Thinking of fellwar as well since it creates both sides and in commander something of my opponents will likely give me the correct mana. Admittedly that means ANOTHER revision, ugh.


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