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 Post subject: [Standard] Ixalan Park
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Taking a break from finding every resource ever for my EDH brew to drop down my idea for a Standard dino shell here.
Yes, I realize how dumb it is to actually try to run Gishath in Standard.
I don't care. =p
I don't know how bad of an idea it is to run Growing Rites of Itlimoc//Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun in standard, but I want to at least give it a passing try.


So here's my first crack:

Ixalan Park

Creatures - 27 (8 non-dinos + 2 Gishath + 17 other dinosaurs to hit with Gishath)
3 x Otepec Huntmaster
4 x Drover of the Mighty
4 x Ranging Raptors
4 x Ripjaw Raptor
4 x Regisaur Alpha
1 x Huatli, Warrior Poet
2 x Burning Sun's Avatar
2 x Verdant Sun's Avatar
2 x Gishath, Sun's Avatar
1 x Wakening Sun's Avatar


Non-Creatures - 11
2 x Commune with Dinosaurs
3 x Abrade
2 x Pillar of Origins
2 x Growing Rites of Itlimoc
2 x Settle the Wreckage


Land - 22
4 x Rootbound Crag
4 x Sunpetal Grove
4 x Sheltered Thicket
2 x Scattered Groves
3 x Forest
3 x Mountain
2 x Plains

Sideboard - 15
2 x Savage stomp
2 x Pounce
4 x Sweltering Suns
4 x Carnage Tyrant
3 x Deathgorge Scavenger


Mana Sources:
:17+4(drover of the mighty)+~2(pillar of origins)
:11+4+~2
:8+4+~2

Creatures/Non-Creatures/Total
1-0/2/2
2-7/5/12
3-4/2/6
4-4/4/8
5-5/0/5
6-2/0/2
7-2/0/2
8-3/0/3

Average cmc:4.33/2.62/3.78
cmc doesn't mean as much since this is a ramp deck, but still.

early ramp:9 (otepec huntmaster, drover of the mighty, pillar of origins)
mid game ramp: 6 (ranging raptors, growing rites of itlimoc)
cardflow: 8 (ripjaw raptor, commune with dinosaurs, growing rites of itlimoc)
haste: 9 (otepec huntmaster, regisaur alpha, gishath)
stabilizing lifegain: 3 (Huatli, Verdant Sun's Avatar)
spot removal: 5 (Abrade, Burning Sun's Avatar)
wipes: 3 (Settle the Wreckage, Wakening Sun's Avatar)
artifact destruction: 3 (Abrade)
enchantment/land destruction: 0 (maybe I should put some in the sideboard...)
removal for indestructibles: 2 (Settle the Wreckage)

sideboard: 3 graveyard hate, 4 anti-control finisher, 4 fast board wipes, 4 enrage triggers
given that I only have 8 enrage creatures I could probably go down some of the enrage triggers to hit enchantments and lands should that prove necessary.
Creeping Mold?
Cast Out?
Ixalan's Binding?
Crushing Canopy?
Forsake the Worldly?

Hypergeometric Gishath trigger success check
assume ramped to gishath by turn 6
13 cards seen (7 hand + 6 turns)
what number of target dinosaurs already drawn?
roughly: 13*17/60=3.68~4
roughly 4 dinosaurs already drawn
leaves 13 targets left
->Damage Dealt-> 1----2----3----4----5----6----7
vDinos Seenv
1---------------------28% 48% 63% 74% 82% 87% 91%
2---------------------00% 07% 18% 30% 43% 54% 64%
3---------------------00% 00% 02% 06% 12% 20% 29%

Realistically speaking, expecting more than one dinosaur per hit with my dino density is foolish.
I'm not going to bother filling out the rest of the table as it seems rather pointless at those %s (not to mention it would be dreadfully difficult to read being that cluttered).

I'm going to be honest about this. Dedicated ramp decks scare me. As in, I don't normally like playing them because if you draw the wrong half of the deck, you just flounder around doing nothing. But two things have swayed me to try this right now: 1) WotC put SO MUCH RAMP in the set it feels like they maybe tried to make this viable. 2)There's actually a fair amount of cardflow so the deck MIGHT actually have a little bit of resiliency this time around.
I'm still skeptical though. But I'd sure love to be proven wrong.

Edit: Onward // Victory one shot? XD


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:12 pm 
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I'd swap those Tyrants to the main deck. Leave the Gishaths and Burning Sun, ditch the other avatars.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Yeah, I think you're right. Carnage Tyrants are absurd. I was originally thinking of them as primarily vs. control, but actually they are just dumb everywhere.
Should the Verdant Suns be sideboard or do you think they just go altogether? I like them (maybe just one though) as long game stabilization/trump against other midrange decks is what I'm thinking.
Wakening Sun I think at least deserves a sideboard slot, though I'm open to other suggestions.

Should I leave the 4th Tyrant in the board or swap out a Burning Sun? I kinda like the utility of the Burning sun (though does make me a little nervous in a 3 color deck).


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:40 am 
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Any 6+cc Dino should be added to your deck only after all 4 Tyrants are there. I'd go either 1 Burning Sun & 1 Gishath or just 2 Gishath, and use the other slot for an extra Huatli.

Also, the 3cc Dino you want is Kinjalli's Sunwing. Ranging Raptor's got a nice ability when it triggers, the problem is it's not enough of a threat (unlike Ripjaw) so it's just going to be ignored.

Growing Rights is a trap. Waste T3 when you could be playing Sunwing or Ripjaw, and it doesn't flip in time to be useful. Dinosaur Stomp would be a good replacement.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Any 6+cc Dino should be added to your deck only after all 4 Tyrants are there. I'd go either 1 Burning Sun & 1 Gishath or just 2 Gishath, and use the other slot for an extra Huatli.
I can get behind the full 4 tyrants, but I'm iffy on the second Huatli. For two reasons:
1)She can't be hit by Gishath triggers
2)Otepec Huntmaster and Pillar of Origins don't ramp into her. She'd be a 5 drop in a deck with 22 lands and only 4 relevant ramp spells to her.

Quote:
Also, the 3cc Dino you want is Kinjalli's Sunwing. Ranging Raptor's got a nice ability when it triggers, the problem is it's not enough of a threat (unlike Ripjaw) so it's just going to be ignored.
I agree with you that Ranging Raptors won't actually trigger as many times as I'd like them to because of how small they are, but I'm not ready to swap them all out yet. And I have been thinking about adding the Sunwing, but I wasn't sure where until you brought up this possibility. I'm thinking a 2/2 split.

Quote:
Growing Rights is a trap. Waste T3 when you could be playing Sunwing or Ripjaw, and it doesn't flip in time to be useful. Dinosaur Stomp would be a good replacement.
I agree, I suspect Growing Rites is a trap, but I want to try it first, just in case I get pleasantly surprised. But yeah, Savage Stomp would be a fine replacement, if (when) Growing Rites does prove itself dead weight.

Thoughts on any of my points here?

I'm really enjoying this back and forth. Thank you CardboardNomad. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:33 pm 
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1. Huatli can come in at turn 5 and start making really good Dinos immediately which defend her while you continue to play your win-cons, or come in after you drop them and completely wreck their chump blocking plans. Plus casting Gishath just to trade with a few stacked Pirates so it only searches one card stinks. This stops that, but more likely just wins you the game if you have a couple beaters in play.
2. You'll get there. Dinos want to exert scary pressure every turn after 3. You already have 9 ramps, so you're going to be following Ranging with Ripjaw or Regisaur, and that's where all their blocking/removal attention will be. Putting them a turn behind on blocking will mean chumps instead of trades, and you want to give yourself the best possible chance of making that happen. It also gives you a flyer and wrecks all the haste in a Dino mirror.
3. Savage Stomp at 1cc takes advantage of the moments when your ramp gives you that extra mana. It also activates your Ripjaw and the +1 counter is extra valuable against the mirror. Growing Rites is really going to take up your whole turn until it's too late. Kills that pressure you're building.

Edit: I should note that I say all this as a duels player with an eye on arena; I know nothing about Standard. My take on Ixalan-only Dinos is more focused on the mirror and actually drops a Sunwing in favor of more removal that can handle the Ripjaw/Regisaur/Tyrant core.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Ok, so I've applied SOME sense to my decklist. =p
Went ahead and went down to 1 ranging raptors because dinosaurs really are a tempo deck and sunwing is such a house for that. Also Ranging Raptors are just awkward when I think about the chances of them actually getting an enrage trigger.

Oh. I just realized something. Hitting Wakening Sun's Avatar off of a Gishath trigger doesn't give me the wrath.
I mean, yeah, I knew the "cast from your hand" clause was there, and I knew Gishath put it straight out from the library, I just didn't put 2 and 2 together.
That said, it might still deserve a sideboard slot, after all I am ramping.

Creatures - 27 (9 non-dinos + 2 Gishath + 16 other dinosaurs to hit with Gishath)
3 x Otepec Huntmaster
4 x Drover of the Mighty
1 x Ranging Raptors
3 x Kinjalli's Sunwing
4 x Ripjaw Raptor
4 x Regisaur Alpha
2 x Huatli, Warrior Poet
4 x Carnage Tyrant
2 x Gishath, Sun's Avatar

Non-Creatures - 11
2 x Commune with Dinosaurs
3 x Abrade
2 x Pillar of Origins
2 x Savage Stomp
2 x Settle the Wreckage

Land - 22
4 x Rootbound Crag
4 x Sunpetal Grove
3 x Sheltered Thicket
3 x Scattered Groves
3 x Forest
3 x Mountain
2 x Plains

Sideboard - 15
1 x Sheltered Thicket
1 x Scattered Groves
1 x Plains
1 x Kinjalli's Sunwing
3 x Deathgorge Scavenger
4 x Sweltering Suns
2 x Cast Out
1 x Hour of Devastation
1 x Wakening Sun's Avatar


Mana Sources:
:17+4(drover of the mighty)+~2(pillar of origins)
:10+4+~2
:9+4+~2

Of course, realistically speaking, the sideboard is totally in flux because all we can do at this point is make educated guesses as to what gets played. Heck even the mainboard will probably see changes, but this seems like a fine way to open Standard Showdown.

Hm....another thought.
Does Unclaimed Territory have a spot here? My inclination is to say no, but I haven't actually given it much thought.

Still open to any more suggestions. Thanks much! :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:13 am 
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it's been a long time since I followed the standard scene, so these are my two cents with a general overview of the deck and no knowledge of the metagame.

it looks like you took too many directions in your mainboard:
Kinjalli's Sunwing excels against all in aggro decks and is somewhat good against midrange decks, but it is no courser of kruphix it cannot defend you, it will just make your death slower if you are behind. maybe, is it good to be a sideboard card instead?

Ranging Raptors are somewhat like Kinjalli's Sunwing but they will sometimes ramp you and sometimes they will suck a removal spell which would have otherwise targeted your big dinos, even if they don't favorably trade against aggro decks they will give you a land that will help you cast your big dinos... why are you just using 1 of them, should't they be a playset?

Otepec Huntmaster will ramp into your dinos, yes, but what if you need to remove a creature instead? what if you need to cast Settle the Wreckage? the haste factor will not help you when you are behind, and, as a ramp deck, you are usually behind in the race against aggro decks, so what about some other mana ramp?

Commune with Dinosaurs and lands... you do have a somewhat right number of lands, but it looks like from your mana curve that you MUST hit all your land drops until turn 4 or even 5, so IMO this should be a full set.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Thanks for the input rcitaliano, I greatly appreciate it.
rcitaliano wrote:
it's been a long time since I followed the standard scene, so these are my two cents with a general overview of the deck and no knowledge of the metagame.

it looks like you took too many directions in your mainboard:
Kinjalli's Sunwing excels against all in aggro decks and is somewhat good against midrange decks, but it is no courser of kruphix it cannot defend you, it will just make your death slower if you are behind. maybe, is it good to be a sideboard card instead?
Sunwing is not for blocking, it's for making my opponents not block.

Quote:
Ranging Raptors are somewhat like Kinjalli's Sunwing but they will sometimes ramp you and sometimes they will suck a removal spell which would have otherwise targeted your big dinos, even if they don't favorably trade against aggro decks they will give you a land that will help you cast your big dinos... why are you just using 1 of them, should't they be a playset?
I would agree except that Ranging Raptors aren't big enough to suck a removal spell, they'll save those for the bigger dinos. Ranging Raptors is for blocking which is not where a ramp/aggro deck like mine wants to be, but it is a concession to faster decks where it can either stunt their attacks or actually ramp me. You have to think about it from the opponent's persepective. If you're looking at an attacking ranging raptors across the table from you and it's relatively early in the game, do you block it? Do you burn it? All this knowing your opponent likely has bigger dinos because otherwise there's no point to playing a 2/3 for 3? You probably take a few hits from it rather than let your opponent get ramp value out of it, save your removal for bigger threats, and only finally kill it when you have a bigger creature that can just eat it and a kill spell to deal with whatever threat inevitably follows it. The opponent simply has too much say in how you get value out of ranging raptors.

Quote:
Otepec Huntmaster will ramp into your dinos, yes, but what if you need to remove a creature instead? what if you need to cast Settle the Wreckage? the haste factor will not help you when you are behind, and, as a ramp deck, you are usually behind in the race against aggro decks, so what about some other mana ramp?
What you're talking about here is the dichotomy between a ramp deck and a midrange deck. The Huntmasters probably come out in the sideboard games for Sweltering Suns against aggro decks, that much is true.
There are other 2 drop ramp spells, but haste is BIG game when you're ramping out fatties. Turn 3 4/5's with haste and enrage are where this deck wants to be.

Quote:
Commune with Dinosaurs and lands... you do have a somewhat right number of lands, but it looks like from your mana curve that you MUST hit all your land drops until turn 4 or even 5, so IMO this should be a full set.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind more of these either, but where? I could see cutting the ranging raptor and moving a sunwing to the sideboard for them I guess. I really dislike going down 2 dinosaurs though as that makes for fewer hits off both commune and gishath. I'm not sold.
For as unfamiliar with the archetype as I am, it may be too early to tell right now, this may simply require test plays.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Ok I've got what's probably an incredibly dumb idea inspired by a card I got rolled by at draft this weekend: Trove of Temptation
My thoughts are thus:
1) It's ramp that works for more than dinosaurs
2) It's pseudo removal that forces opponents to run their (presumably smaller) creatures into my giant dinos.
3) By forcing attacks it makes Ranging Raptors far more likely to actually ramp.
4) It's should help break ground stalls I can see happening. I know I'm supposed to be a ramp deck that goes over the top too fast for the opponent to keep up, but I also know better than to expect things to go as I want.
5) By forcing attacks, unless the attacker has vigilance, it makes it more likely for my attackers to get through on the crack back.

The downside, of course, is that it's a four mana spell that doesn't affect the board on its own.

Given that it serves as removal and ramp I think we can combine some slots that were used for one or the other and give me the room I wanted to go up to the full 4 Commune with Dinosaurs.
Also, since the forced attacks should help enable ranging raptors to actually ramp, I want to backtrack a little to a 2/2 split with raptors and sunwings.

Out:
1 x Pillar of Origins
1 x Otepec Huntmaster
1 x Abrade
1 x Savage Stomp
1 x Kinjalli's Sunwing

In:
2 x Trove of Temptation
2 x Commune with Dinosaurs
1 x Ranging Raptors


I was orignally thinking of cutting both Pillar of Origins, but decided I wanted to keep a 2 drop ramp spell that doesn't die to creature removal, but I also don't want to go down too far on either haste sources (otepec huntmaster) or 2 drop ramp sources that can be used on non dinosaurs (Drover of the Mighty).

With the full set of Communes I can probably drop the lands from the sideboard and put the removal (and the sunwing) I took out of the main deck in there. Also, since the Troves break board stalls it's unlikely that Wakening Sun's Avatar serves much purpose that high up on the curve. In particular I'm noting this because I'd like to fill out my set of Abrades from the board for the matchup against vehicles since my deck doesn't like Heart of Kiran.


Deck now looks like:

Creatures - 26 (8 non-dinos + 2 Gishath + 16 other dinosaurs to hit with Gishath)
2 x Otepec Huntmaster
4 x Drover of the Mighty
2 x Ranging Raptors
2 x Kinjalli's Sunwing
4 x Ripjaw Raptor
4 x Regisaur Alpha
2 x Huatli, Warrior Poet
4 x Carnage Tyrant
2 x Gishath, Sun's Avatar

Non-Creatures - 12
4 x Commune with Dinosaurs
2 x Abrade
1 x Pillar of Origins
1 x Savage Stomp
2 x Trove of Temptation
2 x Settle the Wreckage

Land - 22
4 x Rootbound Crag
4 x Sunpetal Grove
3 x Sheltered Thicket
3 x Scattered Groves
3 x Forest
3 x Mountain
2 x Plains

Sideboard - 15
2 x Abrade
1 x Savage Stomp
2 x Kinjalli's Sunwing
3 x Deathgorge Scavenger
4 x Sweltering Suns
2 x Cast Out
1 x Hour of Devastation


Mana Sources:
:17+6(drover of the mighty and trove of temptation)
:10+6
:9+6

CMC Creatures/Non-Creatures/Total (Ramp-and-Cardflow)
1-0/4/4 (4)
2-6/3/9 (7)
3-4/1/5 (2)
4-4/4/8 (6)
5-6/0/6 (0)
6-4/0/4 (0)
7-0/0/0 (0)
8-2/0/2 (0)

average cmc: 4.2/2.4/3.7 (2.5)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:18 pm 
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I've been thinking the same about Trove. I like cards that take away your opponent's ability to make decisions, and making them attack into enrage is killer. I'd still probably run 3 Stomps and 2 Communes though; beyond making your Dinos even bigger to survive the attacks, you need to take out any flyers/evaders or the best part of Trove is useless. I think the Communes also become marginally less important if you're getting extra card advantage from non-consensual enrage triggers.


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