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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:37 am 
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Preferred Pronoun Set:
Shifty (Damage this deals to creatures is lethal if it's greater than or equal to that creature's power.)

Globulous Blob
Creature — Beeble (C)
Shifty
No one could tell quite what it was, exactly.
1/1

Clever Knave
Creature — Human Rogue (U)
First strike, shifty
"You could challenge me to a battle of wits instead, but I think you'd find that my tongue is as sharp as my blade."
2/1

so the Globulous Blob would trade with a Looming Altisaur, and you'd have to be at least a 3/3 to win out against the Clever Knave.

downside is that it's pretty much just a strictly-worse deathtouch, but then again I suppose reach is just a strictly worse flying.

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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:53 am 
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I had to read that 3 times to understand. Don't think it's a good one. What about something that shows blue/red's mutability?

Apprentice (When this creature attacks or blocks, choose up to one keyword on another creature you control. This creature has that keyword until end of combat.)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:30 pm 
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Preferred Pronoun Set:
"keyword" doesn't actually mean anything in magic rules. you have to spell it out.

cleaned up the wording on mine a bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:33 pm 
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Here are the original restrictions as dictated by Rush four and a half years ago:

- The keyword probably doesn't want to be evasive. Blue already has flying and a horde of unblockable creatures; red already has intimidate and its own horde of unblockable creatures. You could keyword some sort of evasion that they've shared, but it really doesn't open things up that much.
- It wants to be relatively simple, of course.
- It can't use variables. That's not evergreen.
- Evergreen keywords tend to change the fundamentals of how things worked. Creatures tap to attack... unless they have vigilance. Creatures can't attack the turn they arrive... unless they have haste. The keyword we're looking for is likely to interact with something fundamental in the way creatures interact.
- It should be a static, non-stackable ability. This isn't a written rule, but all 15 of the current evergreen keyword abilities are static abilities. Lifelink and deathtouch at one time weren't, but they actively found a way to update this, which is some of the evidence I'm basing this claim on. So, no triggered or activated abilities.

Since then, I've come to think that Dimir needs this more than Izzet. In the set for which Rush posed this question, if I'm recalling it correctly, he put defender in and flying in , but defender is hard to work with (being a drawback), and when I think of flying, I don't think black.

As for UR, I think that besides the fact that it's evasive, my Stealth keyword may be the best answer that exists. Still, it's a design problem whose solution I'll probably never feel satisfied with.

(There's also razorborne's solution of calling menace "elude" and putting it in Izzet, leaving Jund with trample and haste, which I think would have worked out perfectly if they didn't go on to keyword it as something very non-blue in flavor.)

My most baseline goals when designing an evergreen creature keyword is:

• Can a CMC 1 1/1 common creature have it?

• Can a CMC 1 common Aura grant it?

• Can a "lord" grant it to everything you control, while still having it make sense and feel cool without being overly complex?

My most recent attempt at the top of the page doesn't pass this test, but Stealth does. (So do all the existing evergreens except double strike, but that's really just first strike with French dressing. Notably, prowess doesn't pass the third test because it was too many triggers for MTGO to handle seamlessly, which I think is one of the reasons why it was cut.)

I think it's a simple enough trio of goalpoasts to aim for. Then again, sometimes designing something simple is the hardest challenge of all…

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:18 pm 
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defender is a horrible evergreen keyword btw

it should be deciduous and only appear when the flavor dictates it or the mechanical design specifically requires it (like a large blue creature with defender)

------------------------------------------------------

first of all, defender is a drawback keyword, while the rest of the evergreen keywords are advantages

sure there are ways that you can build so that defender is less of a drawback, but the fact of the matter is still that having your color's primary keyword be something negative feels really bad

secondly, much of the time defender is mechanically irrelevant

gameplay-wise, what is the difference between an 0/4 with defender and an 0/4 without defender?

they're literally the same card in 99% of scenarios

and in the rare circumstance in which your player recognizes that it's correct to attack with their 0/4, i feel like it would be better to give them the option of doing so: it doesn't cost the designer anything to remove defender from their creature that wasn't going to attack much in the first place, and the player can feel clever about themselves when they identify the situation in which they should attack, which is a good thing from a design perspective

defender on a wall for flavor reasons is fine

but would Birds of Paradise be a better card with defender? definitely not

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:33 pm 
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Also the current state of evergreen color pairs is a bit weird given recent developments.

Haste has been phased out of Black and pushed more towards Green's color pie. This makes Haste and Trample both keywords that are primarily Red and Green.

Black is getting a lot more Flash now, making the keyword now Blue/Black/Green.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:47 pm 
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<mechanic name> (Tapped creatures can block this creature. This creature can't be blocked by untapped creatures.)

Forces the opponent to attack in some cases if they want to block. Red. Also useful in the early game which red would like.

Is tricky. Blue.

Makes walls less useful against it.

Masako the Humorless

<Cardname>
Instant
Target creature gains <%> until end of turn. (Tapped creatures can block it. It can't blocked by untapped creatures.)

Use it on your own creature to make it harder to block or on an opponent's creature when they attack thinking they're safe.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:08 pm 
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My feedback on Rush's rules / points to consider -

- Rush was making a set that had additional restrictions (especially the non stackable thing), which we don't have to worry about any more

- Some things have changed since the time of the original post. E.g. Red no longer has intimidate. Menace is not as evasive / not evasive in the same way that intimidate is (like you can't use it to get through on a clogged board). I don't think there's anything wrong with the new mechanic being a kind of evasion

- Evergreen mechanics can use variables. Scry is evergreen, and Rampage used to be. Variables are not a big deal either way. Prowess could have used a variable if they wanted to make more cards that got +2/+2 when you cast a spell, but they decided to just spell that out. On the flip side, Afterlife could have not used a variable and you could just write it twice on the cards you wanted to make two spirits if there weren't as many of them

- Why do we want an evergreen mechanic for each color pair, apart from satisfying designers? The main uses for it are in cycles and something to put on hybrid creatures. It doesn't necessarily have to be something you use in high volume (see double strike for example)

- I'm pretty happy with black getting green's flash while green got black's haste, it makes more sense for the strategies of both colors. This also conveniently means UB is settled now and doesn't have to fight WU for flying. It also means that RG has three overlapping mechanics now (trample, reach, haste), but none of them can be ported to UR


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