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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:43 am 
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Salamander Spit
Instant — Ingredient
(You may cast any number of ingredients simultaneously as one spell. If you do, redistribute its total potency between each ingredient. If the spell would be countered, it only counters one ingredient of your choice.)
~ deals damage to up to one target creature equal to its potency.
[3]

Arcane Page
Sorcery — Ingredient
(You may cast any number of ingredients simultaneously as one spell. If you do, redistribute its total potency between each ingredient. If the spell would be countered, it only counters one ingredient of your choice.)
Draw cards equal to this spell's potency.
[2]

Vampiric Miasma
Sorcery — Ingredient
(You may cast any number of ingredients simultaneously as one spell. If you do, redistribute its total potency between each ingredient. If the spell would be countered, it only counters one ingredient of your choice.)
Each opponent loses life equal to this spell's potency.
You gain life equal to this spell's potency.
[X]

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:17 am 
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Hmm. That's a really cool mechanic, even tho I don't like the cards with it that you've posted that much.
It also seems awkward that a lot of the time only one ingredient will actually matter.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:34 am 
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what about timing
like if i cast your red and blue spells together, is it an instant or sorcery?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:36 am 
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idk what type it is, but you use lowest common demoninator for cating restrictions

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:42 am 
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I like the idea. Reminds me of splice (except with splice you get to keep the cards and don't have the potency stuff).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:19 am 
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My first thought was splice as well, but then I realized the truth.
Banding for instants and sorceries.

But yeah, this seems neat. Each spell has a number that is easily interactable, so there is a lot of design space.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:07 am 
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I kinda don't like how the values of different numbers are so radically different. like, if I play Salamander Spit and Arcane Page together, what are the odds I'm not just gonna draw 5 cards? maybe if there's an annoying 1-toughness creature I might throw 1 damage at it, but I'm effectively discarding a card for each additional point I want to deal, and that's a pretty bad rate unless I'm desperate. it feels like what I want to be doing is trying to find fun and interesting distributions that let me use all my Ingredients a little, but in practice I think you'll mostly see people dumping all the potency into whichever single effect gives the best return. (unless that has an effective cap, like creature damage, but most of them don't.) I think if you want to make this work you have to be pretty tight with how much value a point of potency provides, but these three examples are going in the opposite direction.

I'd also probably limit them all to sorceries, to solve the typing problem.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:16 am 
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I don't really like the idea all that much, I just feel like I've become a very conservative designer as of late and I wanted to present something a bit more out there.

I acknowledge the issue regarding how it plays in actuality, and I considered that it might be better if you just rearrange the individual numbers instead of distributing them freely, so if you did Spit + Page you could either deal 3 and draw 2, or deal 2 and draw 3. There's probably an ever more clever third way to do it though, hopefully one that's less parasitic.

If there's an easy way to do "draw a card for every 2 potency" then you could also tinker around with that.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:50 pm 
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Mown wrote:
If there's an easy way to do "draw a card for every 2 potency" then you could also tinker around with that.

you could probably word it like that, honestly

'draw a card for every x potency'
'deal damage equal to potency'
'loses life equal to potency'

something like that, and then just have each effect occur rather than trying to redistribute potency values between spells

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:55 am 
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That's actually pretty cool. Reverse split cards in a way.
razorborne wrote:
I kinda don't like how the values of different numbers are so radically different. like, if I play Salamander Spit and Arcane Page together, what are the odds I'm not just gonna draw 5 cards? maybe if there's an annoying 1-toughness creature I might throw 1 damage at it, but I'm effectively discarding a card for each additional point I want to deal, and that's a pretty bad rate unless I'm desperate. it feels like what I want to be doing is trying to find fun and interesting distributions that let me use all my Ingredients a little, but in practice I think you'll mostly see people dumping all the potency into whichever single effect gives the best return. (unless that has an effective cap, like creature damage, but most of them don't.) I think if you want to make this work you have to be pretty tight with how much value a point of potency provides, but these three examples are going in the opposite direction.

I'd also probably limit them all to sorceries, to solve the typing problem.

:duel:

True, but I don't see that as much of a problem. If someone wants to use a burn spell they have no utility for as fuel for drawing more, let them. What I think should be done would be making each Ingredient individually under the curve, so you're incentivized to combine them to get larger, more worthwhile effects. Say, Salamander Spit with 2 potency -- 2 damage for 2 mana is rather low, and it will be more often you will cast it with Arcane Page to remove something with 4 toughness, or something with 3 toughness and draw a card, or simply draw four cards. All of these scenarios seem likely to happen in an average game of Magic.

I wonder, however, how many effects one can do with this. There's the obligatory vanilla Ingredient with a high potency for cost, a basic pump spell, maybe a Mind Rot. Was thinking of lifegain but since lifegain generally needs higher numbers to be worthwhile on its own (say, at least 3 or 4), it would be mostly used for potency instead of its own effect.

Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield if it's converted mana cost is equal to or less than this spell's potency.
Create a number of 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens equal to this spell's potency.
Create a X/X green Elemental creature token, where X is this spell's potency.
All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn, where X is this spell's potency.

Definitely agree with making them sorceries, though.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:51 am 
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Riorvard wrote:
Say, Salamander Spit with 2 potency -- 2 damage for 2 mana is rather low, and it will be more often you will cast it with Arcane Page to remove something with 4 toughness, or something with 3 toughness and draw a card, or simply draw four cards. All of these scenarios seem likely to happen in an average game of Magic.

see, that's where I'd disagree with you: if I'm paying and 2 cards just for a lava coil that doesn't even exile, something has gone seriously wrong, and we are way into the outliers in terms of potential game scenarios. on average, "draw 4 cards" is so much more valuable than "deal 4 damage" that the decision between the modes becomes trivial unless I'm so desperate that I'm probably going to lose anyway. with your proposal, in 99% of magic games, Spit+Page has has 2 modes: draw 4 cards, or deal 1 damage and draw 3 cards. everything else is reserved for outlier situations and, more often, misplays.

on the other hand, if Spit had 1 potency but dealt 2 damage per point, the choices become a lot more even, and it becomes more likely that you can find situations to use each of them. dumping all the points into burn is probably still bad, but 6 damage is a lot more than 4 when it comes to removal, and you can also do the 4 damage and still draw. the card draw choices get weaker, maxing out at 3, but the damage options get a bit more appealing to compensate, and while you technically wind up with fewer possible options (the spell has 4 modes instead of 5) in practice the range of possibilities expands significantly because fewer of the options are absolute garbage compared to the others.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:16 am 
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razorborne wrote:
Riorvard wrote:
Say, Salamander Spit with 2 potency -- 2 damage for 2 mana is rather low, and it will be more often you will cast it with Arcane Page to remove something with 4 toughness, or something with 3 toughness and draw a card, or simply draw four cards. All of these scenarios seem likely to happen in an average game of Magic.

see, that's where I'd disagree with you: if I'm paying and 2 cards just for a lava coil that doesn't even exile, something has gone seriously wrong, and we are way into the outliers in terms of potential game scenarios. on average, "draw 4 cards" is so much more valuable than "deal 4 damage" that the decision between the modes becomes trivial unless I'm so desperate that I'm probably going to lose anyway. with your proposal, in 99% of magic games, Spit+Page has has 2 modes: draw 4 cards, or deal 1 damage and draw 3 cards. everything else is reserved for outlier situations and, more often, misplays.

on the other hand, if Spit had 1 potency but dealt 2 damage per point, the choices become a lot more even, and it becomes more likely that you can find situations to use each of them. dumping all the points into burn is probably still bad, but 6 damage is a lot more than 4 when it comes to removal, and you can also do the 4 damage and still draw. the card draw choices get weaker, maxing out at 3, but the damage options get a bit more appealing to compensate, and while you technically wind up with fewer possible options (the spell has 4 modes instead of 5) in practice the range of possibilities expands significantly because fewer of the options are absolute garbage compared to the others.

:duel:


I should point out that the debate has focussed on comparing extremes here (4 cards or 4 damage for ?),and that some of the middle range seems still seem like good-value options (1 damage, 3 cards; 2 damage, 2 cards) for .


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:39 am 
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Don't forget that you'd be using two cards. Draw 2 & deal 2 is effectively just a cantripping shock.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Mown wrote:
Don't forget that you'd be using two cards. Draw 2 & deal 2 is effectively just a cantripping shock.


Oh, true.

I also don't know how but somehow we started discussing the number 4, whereas 5 is the combined potency of Spit and Page. So I guess I'm happy to stick with thinking that the following are good-value options, despite the fact that we're using up two cards:

Draw 5 cards,
Draw 4 cards, 1 damage
Draw 3 cards, 2 damage

And
Draw 2 cards, 3 damage (cantripping incinerate?) is also just about OK.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:38 pm 
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Let's get dangerous then: instead of assigning potency to the halves of the spells, let the resulting spell count the total potency for everything.

So the Salamander Spit/Arcane Page combo would be 3UR, those two cards, and draw five cards and deal 5 damage. That would probably require tweaking individual potencies, but seems to solve the problem of the extreme inefficiency of combining them.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:59 pm 
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Riorvard wrote:
Let's get dangerous then: instead of assigning potency to the halves of the spells, let the resulting spell count the total potency for everything.

So the Salamander Spit/Arcane Page combo would be 3UR, those two cards, and draw five cards and deal 5 damage. That would probably require tweaking individual potencies, but seems to solve the problem of the extreme inefficiency of combining them.

sure but then you're filling your deck with a bunch of cards that are garbage until the late game when you can combine them, and it's not like normal late-game cards where you just need to run a couple: if you need to combine multiples to get anything then your deck needs to be mostly ingredients, which means you'll spend the first five turns trying to survive with wildly underpowered effects. I guess I just don't see what's wrong with the approach of making them roughly balanced on their own and just making sure that each card values potency at a roughly equivalent rate so that what the correct distribution is will depend on the specific circumstances of the game?

:duel:

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