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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:41 am 
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Azor is anti-Bolas but he is 10000+ years in the past for the guild. The question is if Isperia will find reason to align with him.

I think Golgari, which is inherently tumultuous, would split between pro-Bolas Vraska and anti-Bolas Jarad, until Vraska remembers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:44 am 
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I don't think Jarad is long for the world, sadly. Vraska was promised leadership, I forsee the Lich Lord being rubbed out before we actually revisit Rav.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:34 pm 
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I want all of the guilds to align against Bolas, the Gateless to align with him, and for Bolas and the Gateless to tear down everything Ravnica was and create a free, oppressionless utopia for knowledge and the arts with Jace's mangled, desiccated corpse as a glorious centerpiece, which is resurrected once a year at festival and burned as its own effigy.

But, to quote The Stones, "you can't always get what you want."


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:43 pm 
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I want all of the guilds to align against Bolas, the Gateless to align with him, and for Bolas and the Gateless to tear down everything Ravnica was and create a free, oppressionless utopia for knowledge and the arts with Jace's mangled, desiccated corpse as a glorious centerpiece, which is resurrected once a year at festival and burned as its own effigy.

But, to quote The Stones, "you can't always get what you want."

I'd be more fair to Bolas' character and suggest the creation not of a free and oppressionless utopia but rather of a savage but fair meritocracy that rewards personal excellence, ruthless ambition, and the pursuit of knowledge under the watchful eye of the God-Emperor (Or Pharaoh, if he likes that title better now)

Or the suggestion I "floated" on YMTC


Stones quote stands though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:37 pm 
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I want all of the guilds to align against Bolas, the Gateless to align with him, and for Bolas and the Gateless to tear down everything Ravnica was and create a free, oppressionless utopia for knowledge and the arts with Jace's mangled, desiccated corpse as a glorious centerpiece, which is resurrected once a year at festival and burned as its own effigy.

But, to quote The Stones, "you can't always get what you want."


Remember: there's a nonzero probability that that would happen :V .

That would be a hillarious twist.

For a Bolas-controlled plane, I envision a state, where Bolas sometimes kills and tortures thousands of people for no reason other than bad mood, but otherwise the life for everyone is objectively better, safer, and even perhaps less oppressive ?

"In our Glorious Empire, you'll only ever need to fear Nicol Bolas, your Supreme Lord ! Thanks to His genius and almighty power, no criminals, bueraucrats, (other) dark wizards, or dangerous creatures from any worlds threaten your life ! Two years ago, out if boredom, He created a blue spell that automatically planned a perfect economy for our plane for the next century ! And then drained minds of ten random people, because he still was bored ! Hail Nicol Bolas !"

Grixis characher isn't required to make a grixis government, you know...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Mostly, I just want Jace and the hollow shell of what used to be Ravnica gone.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:06 pm 
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The problem really boils down to the fact that no matter which path the story takes, it's going to feel hollow. We have a lack of appropriate build up having JUST had the Gatewatch get their faces punched in. So, if Bolas wins then we get a lack of emotional growth from their first defeat. If Bolas is foiled, then what do we save? A plane tarnished by an already present pall of the status quo, All hail Ravnica the everlasting. If, gods forbid the worst happen and they actually KILL Bolas then... that's not an earned victory either (like any of them have been). There's simply not been enough development between these confrontations! AND if they kill Bolas, they've written off the largest villain since Yawgmoth without the emotional weight we had to build up to it!

It's not about the cost of victory, though that's important, it's about the journey it takes to get to it.
And this is a damn short trip of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:33 pm 
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That's actually a much better way to state my problems with this block going into it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:49 pm 
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As long as bolas survives or is defeated but they hint at him coming back, ill be happy

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:14 pm 
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No matter what they do with Bolas, it's going to feel incomplete to me without Kamigawa involved at some point. The plane impacted the Legends II storyline, the Time Spiral storyline and the Infinite Consortium storyline. Pretty much only Alara wasn't Kamigawa related, but that story still feels it needs to amount to something. If Kamigawa doesn't factor into the story of Bolas's "grand scheme," it'll just feel wrong. I don't think I'd be as disappointed with Ravnica as the next and final part of the Bolas arc if the story took some time at Tamiyo's place as a planning stage before the confrontation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:09 am 
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Would the appearance of an Umezawa in RetRetRav be adequate compensation? We can always hope for the latest one to be a walker or find a portal.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Mostly, I just want Jace and the hollow shell of what used to be Ravnica gone.
Mostly, I just want to like that post more than once.

The dumpster fire that was RIX gave me the idea that it would be cool if Vraska just petrified Jace before he can restore her memories. But I'd be happy about anything that involves Jace's mangled, desiccated corpse, too. I don't care how the Gatewatch dies as long as they die. Besides, while I could accept the return of the guilds as an in-universe change originally, I've been in the "burn the whole place down" camp ever since the New Era of Storytelling started pretending the Interregnum didn't even happen and retconned the guilds into AoA. Like, god, at least get rid of the damn Guildpact already.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Some predictions from me. Under the hide blocks are more offbeat predictions that amuse me, but I don't actually expect.

Five guilds will back Bolas at some point in the story.
First up, there are the three guilds contained in his color identity. These will be his main and faithful support.
The Rakdos will support him because it seems like Bolas knows and is on good terms with just about every big demon in the Multiverse -- He and the Defiler go way back. It would be cool if Rakdos has a totally different manner talking to Bolas. "I say, old bean, is it finally time to crush this clockwork world beneath our heels? Ah, tally-ho then!"
The Izzet will support him on force of Dragon Cult of Personality. This will probably be because Ral Zarek backstabs Niv Mizzet and gets Niv killed by Bolas, though it would be cool if Instead Niv backstabs Jace because Niv is the son of Bolas (and some ravnican dragon of no note, possibly making him a Lesser, but not true Elder) from the elder dragon days, and Niv is eager to impress daddy with what his genius has wrought in the meantime
The Dimir will back Bolas either because just "They're treacherous and always the villains" or, more charitably, out of philosophical desire to fulfill their purpose of tearing down the guilds and shattering their thrones. It would be cool if Either Bolas summons some shade of Ramses Overdark to manage the Dimir; or Szadek has reclaimed the reins from his base in Agryem.
The other two black guilds will temporarily back Bolas, giving his identity a clear "Center" but allowing him to splash all five colors.
The Golgari will temporarily back Bolas. Jace will return Vraska's memories at a critical moment, anguished declaration of love optional, at which point the Golgari will defect and join the native defenders.
The Orzhov will temporarily back Bolas. Specifically, the Ghost Council will make the mercenary choice to "Join the winning team". In fact, they may already have done it -- chambers where law doesn't exist, and so on. Teysa Karlov will manage to down the Ghost Council or at least wrest the guild's forces from them and take most of the Orzhov to back Jace in the end.

The story will end with the Guildpact dissolved (again) -- Jace isn't very pleased with Azor, half the guilds turned on the city, and he has some promises of reform to keep to Vraska. You can bet that they'll all be back in form by the next time we visit Ravnica, though, with the possible exception of new management (and thus identities) for the Rakdos and Izzet. More likely they don't bother to change their business cards even with their paruns slain, leaving status quo utterly restored at our next glance despite ending on a note of sweeping change. This is treated as a good thing and nobody ever calls Jace out for failing to actually apply reforms.

Bolas is a dead dragon walking. I hate this as much as the rest of you do, but I'm considering it the safe wager.

Samut will appear as a major player.

Nissa will show up despite her "desertion" from the Gatewatch. She will become at least temporary guild leader or Champion of the Selesnya and receive a :g::w: Planeswalker printing because they worship the worldsoul, she talks to/for worldsouls, therefore they worship her.

We won't get a card for Feather, and if she's mentioned at all it will be to update her status from "rotting in prison" to "executed". Thanks, Aurelia.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:13 pm 
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We won't get a card for Feather, and if she's mentioned at all it will be to update her status from "rotting in prison" to "executed". Thanks, Aurelia.
I just want to remind everyone that Krenko and Lazav each still have a feather of Feather. I bet Creative completely forgot about that and never planned it to go anywhere.

Oh, and I encourage the people who are actually going to put up with the story to keep an eye out for possible fixes for that Azor plot hole. You know, the fact that he shouldn't have been able to leave Ravnica before the Mending reconnected it to the rest of the multiverse and ended its isolation. Any 'walker involved in the signing of the original Guildpact would have been trapped on Ravnica at that point because the Guildpact exploitet Ravnica's already existing planar isolation to be able to function in the first place. Azor's statement on Ixalan that Ravnica's metaphysics were well suited for law magic might be true (or even a result of the isolation), but it kinda misses the point.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Oh, and I encourage the people who are actually going to put up with the story to keep an eye out for possible fixes for that Azor plot hole. You know, the fact that he shouldn't have been able to leave Ravnica before the Mending reconnected it to the rest of the multiverse and ended its isolation. Any 'walker involved in the signing of the original Guildpact would have been trapped on Ravnica at that point because the Guildpact exploitet Ravnica's already existing planar isolation to be able to function in the first place. Azor's statement on Ixalan that Ravnica's metaphysics were well suited for law magic might be true (or even a result of the isolation), but it kinda misses the point.

It was actually some time before that bubble formed. Hence why the Parhelion was crafted after walkers tapered off on their visits. There was a window in which Azor could leave. He just certainly couldn't get back in afterwards.
It also wasn't, if you'll recall, the Guildpact itself that did that, but a consequence of the Time Rifts interacting with the Guildpact that did it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:50 pm 
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I don't think there was such a window. Chapter 8 of the Dissension novel states that Ravnica was already isolated when the Guildpact was signed and that that was what allowed the magic of the pact to work. Feather also says that they built the Parhelion long before the Guildpact (because planeswalkers stopped showing up, just as you said), and that that was how they learned of that isolation in the first place. It was only able to travel to Agyrem, which was technically a part of Ravnica, but not to other planes.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:10 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
Yeah, that's hard to gauge as well. Like, it's clear that some guilds like Azorious and Boros would stand against Bolas, but where do the others fall?

- Azorious: Very against, founder was extremely antithetical to Bolas.
- Dimir: For or against. There's a disgusting amount about the Dimir we just don't know, but they are in Bola's colors.
- Rackdos: Depends on how chummy Rackdos is with Bolas. Maybe for.
- Gruul: Depends how manipulative Bolas is. Probably against when the Amonkhet rock zombies march in to fight.
- Selsnya: Likely against.
- Orzhov: Maybe for or against, depending on what sort of deals Bolas makes with the Ghost Council.
- Boros: Very against. I doubt the angels would put up with this invasion.
- Izzet: Could go either way. Niv would be hard against, but smart enough to know better than to fight Bolas. Also Ral maybe works for Bolas so there could be a split among the guild's loyalties?
- Simic: Likely against. An invasion might also give them an excuse to test out some new mutants.
- Golgari: Likely for, for at least a while until Jace triggers Vraska and she flips mid-fight.


I think it'll be a 5-5 split, or 6-4 in favor of Bolas, so that when (if) Vraska gets memories restored there will still be some sort of struggle that the Gatewatch have to save everyone from.

Honestly, if we get Ixalan Jace, I am okay with Jace living. Otherwise, I just want Hour of Devastation 2.0, Garruk Bugaloo

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:13 am 
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Honestly, I'd be very forgiving of Rav 3 if they took the opportunity to correct one major issue.
The damned Angel's butterfly wings coming back.
There was actually one other design choice they flubbed up before, but I can't recall it right now, but those damned wings have and always will piss me off.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:18 pm 
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I just want to remind everyone that Krenko and Lazav each still have a feather of Feather. I bet Creative completely forgot about that and never planned it to go anywhere.

Plot twist? Boros civil war breaks out with a little backing from Bolas.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:11 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
Honestly, I'd be very forgiving of Rav 3 if they took the opportunity to correct one major issue.
The damned Angel's butterfly wings coming back.
There was actually one other design choice they flubbed up before, but I can't recall it right now, but those damned wings have and always will piss me off.

I recalled it!
We never got any of the crystalline saprolings that were the HUGE visual motif of original Rav.
I want that back.

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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