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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:18 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
The Rip separates Aerona from Icehaven. I have "Sawtooth Bay" marked on the bay north of the Ironclaw Mountains.
Oops, yeah, I meant Sawtooth Bay. I certainly don't think the Rundvelt mountains are in Icehaven. It's probably time to see myself to bed for today.

WotC_Ethan wrote:
Venaria, yes.
*squints at map* Uh, yeah, that one.

WotC_Ethan wrote:
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4.) the mountains directly south of Sursi


I have the city of Janar marked right by those mountains, but it doesn't really preclude them being the Rundvelts.
That's awesome, because so have I. Janar, supposedly built on the ruins of Hujek, gathering place for assassins ;) But yes, they could still be the Rundvelts, the city could easily be a few miles west of the mountains.

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5.) the mountains south of those mountains, in the Green Lands (with the caveat that one of the mountains there is probably the Broken Toe Mountain the centaurs in the Greensleeves trilogy mention)


Yeah, I've marked those as Broken Toe.
Is the whole mountain range called that, or are the centaurs just talking about a single mountain called the Broken Toe? I honestly don't remember from the top of my head. Then again, they might have just called them the Rundvelt Mountains instead or at least mentioned the pesky goblins, so maybe that region isn't the greates fit.

WotC_Ethan wrote:
I don't think I've encountered Barbar anywhere in my research. I assume that it's just an explanation for why there would be things called Barbary Apes in Dominaria.
All things considered, that probably makes the most sense. In that case, I think it's possible that the story "A Nut by Any Other Name" might be set in that region because it features similar gorillas, but I haven't got around to properly look at the anthology in question yet...

WotC_Ethan wrote:
I'm glad you liked the Mons card. It was something I've been trying to make for the whole time I've been at Wizards. Finally pulled it off in Modern Horizons. :)
Wait, THAT long? Wow. I didn't even know for sure you designed it, but I can't say I'm surprised ;)

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:06 pm 
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I don't seem to have any notes from Whispering Woods. I assume that's where the Broken Toe reference is from?

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 8:10 am 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
I don't seem to have any notes from Whispering Woods. I assume that's where the Broken Toe reference is from?
Yeah, that's in Whispering Woods, and maybe they elaborate on it a bit in the rest of the trilogy (but probably not much). Gull and Greensleeves meet two nice Windseeker Centaurs who tell them about the Green Lands. I don't have notes on the novels either, only for some specific things that I looked up because they seemed relevant for a short story (or for the D&D campaign that I want to get off the ground). I'll look into the Greensleeves books and see what I can find about the Broken Toe Mountain(s) and about the goblins that show up in the story, though. For what it's worth, I remember there being Goblin Balloon Brigades and a goblin called Eggsucker, which wouldn't fit with the technology or naming conventions of the Rundvelt goblins, but I can't guarantee those are originally from North Aerona where the bulk of the story takes place.

Though now that I've had a good night's sleep, I'd like to look at the mountains we talked about again...

1.) the mountains between Barbar and La, north of Verdura
--> Possible, but considering how forested everything there is and that Barbar seems to have carnivorous gorillas, the surroundings would feel weirdly specific for those to be the Rundvelt mountains.


2.) the mountains adjacent to Hurloon north of Sawtooth Bay
--> Possible, but the Rundvelt Mountains might work better in South Aerona, if the goblins in the Greensleeves books (i.e. in North Aerona) are any indication.


3.) the mountain range in Venaria
--> I gess if the mountains there were the Rundvelts, Pete Venters might have just labelled the whole peninsula Rundvelt, because the mountain range takes up most of the land there anyway. Besides, the old map that has coloured markers for the regions shows Venaria as a white location, which would suffer if we slapped a mountain range full of iconic goblins there.


4.) the mountains directly south of Sursi (near the city of Janar)
--> I'd say that's my favoured option right now. The story that mentions Janar never points the camera east of the city, only west, and the goblins wouldn't bother the city anyway. Their rock sleds and other battle tactics would be useless outside the mountains, and Janar probably has a city guard and sturdy walls. The thirty odd villages in the Rundvelt range may or may not depend on trade with a city in the nearby lowlands, but I guess it's a possibility. Plus, that spot on the map isn't too crowded righ now and would have room for another named location.


5.) the mountains south of those mountains, in the Green Lands (with the caveat that one of the mountains there is probably the Broken Toe Mountain the centaurs in the Greensleeves trilogy mention)
--> May or may not directly clash with established locations there, but I think the centaurs never mention any goblins in the Green Lands, and they might have just called the Rundvelt range by name if it was there, instead of some Broken Toe Mountain(s)... So putting the Rundvelts there might feel tacked on.


I obviously don't want to tell you what to do with your map, I'm just making suggestions and sharing my thoughts. At least picking a clearly visible mountain range in Aerona seems pretty much on track to me, partly because of Ashes of the Sun, and partly because the Rundvelts have been mentioned on cards from Alpha and Dominaria, both of which already have a strong focus on the Domains. The new artwork for Goblin Warchief also has the updated goblin look that shows some mogg influence from Rath as well as old wreckage in the background, so picking a region that was probably attacked during the Invasion would feel consistent with that as well.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:50 am 
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I've found the first mention of Broken Toe Mountain in Whispering Woods:

“The wizard asked many questions, listed foreign names by the score, until he mentioned Broken Toe Mountain. The centaurs fairly danced in place. ‘Yes, we know that mount! Is close to home! You have been there?’” (p. 82)

And some general information about the centaurs and the Green Lands:

“’Our people live on steppes and taiga we call Green Lands near Honeyed Sea. Far to the east, to judge by sun. Ours is border country, where often are wars. We train as warriors from small child time, work as scouts for good causes.’” (pp. 63-64)

So it seems that Broken Toe Mountain is only a single mountain, not a whole mountain range. I think it could be the tiny mountain (or mountains) near the southcoast of the Green Lands, right below the label on the map reading 'Green Lands'. That would still leave us with that other mountain range near the eastcoast that doesn't have a name yet.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:30 pm 
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The other wrinkle is Nalathni Dragon and its Olesian allies. IIRC these are mentioned nowhere else. That makes me somewhat inclined to stick the Rundvelts on an island somewhere, not on mainland Aerona.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 8:03 pm 
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I can't really contribute to this discussion since I didn't start playing until around Mirrodin/Kamigawa, but I just want to say that it's really cool to see someone from Wizards taking an interest in our little back alley corner of the internet and old lore in general.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 3:52 pm 
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Gur, the goblin from Ashes of the Sun, heard goblin war drums years ago (p. 129). This sort of conflicts with Dochyel's statement that only the Rundvelt goblins use war drums these days. Gur hasn't heard them in years, though, so I guess there technically isn't an inconsistency.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:41 am 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
Gur, the goblin from Ashes of the Sun, heard goblin war drums years ago (p. 129). This sort of conflicts with Dochyel's statement that only the Rundvelt goblins use war drums these days. Gur hasn't heard them in years, though, so I guess there technically isn't an inconsistency.
Hmm, yeah, good catch. I don't think it's relevant for placing the Rundvelt range on the map, though. As you said, it can't be on the same landmass as Stahaan and Mirtiin, both because there is no room for it and because Ayesh has never been to that part of the Domains before, so wherever she has seen the Rundvelt goblins (or heard of them), it was somewhere else.

Maybe we could explain Gur's war drums by saying that the goblin loremasters in the Rundvelt range are somewhat unreliable (which could be the case, because how the heck would they know what all other goblins in the world are doing?), or by saying that the goblins in the Stahaan/Mirtiin region eventually rediscovered or reinvented the use of war drums. Drums are a rather basic and archaic kind of instrument, and surely the humans and minotaurs close to them would know drums, so it's not a stetch to assume that the goblins recreated that tactic without necessarily being aware that their ancestors might have used a similar one in the past.

I don't think we can use timeline shenanigans as an explanation, because Multiverse in Review has pretty watertight evidence that Ashes of the Sun has to be set in (or very close to) 4185 A.R., which is only twenty years before the Phyrexian Invasion. Assuming that "Dochyel's Ride" is also set before the Invasion (which was intended to be a capstone for the 'generic present' of previous stories after all), there isn't really enough time for the goblin traditions in the Mirtiin/Stahaan region to die out, for the goblins in the Rundvelt range to learn about this, and for the entirety of "Dochyel's Ride" to happen (which I believe also spans several years). Even if you take into account the goblins' shorter lifespans, this would feel really compressed in my opinion.


WotC_Ethan wrote:
The other wrinkle is Nalathni Dragon and its Olesian allies. IIRC these are mentioned nowhere else. That makes me somewhat inclined to stick the Rundvelts on an island somewhere, not on mainland Aerona.
Oh wow, that's a Blast from the Past if I ever saw one. I had completely forgotten Nalathni Dragon even had flavour text. So you mean you'd maybe prefer an island to explain why we haven't seen more of the Nalathni Dragons and the Olesians? There certainly isn't any lore about them in any of the books or any other source that I'm aware of, no. You might want to check the issue of the Duelist that had the card as an insert, but my guess is that the flavour text maybe wasn't even coordinated with the Creative Team of the time. If you simply google "Olesian", you get a culture from Stargate, and the art itself was a repurposed sketch for a novel cover. Then again, Nalathni Dragon probably predates the Olesians from Stargate. Both the card and the original Stargate movie are from 1994, but I don't know if the Olesians were featured in that film (I have absolutely no clue about that franchise).

The Olesians on Dominaria might also live in the Rundvelt range, though, but maybe the goblins stopped bothering them after they held back Pashalik Mons and his raiders and focused on the human villages instead. The Nalathni Dragons themselves might have flown in from somewhere else, maybe an island. The Dragons of Magic is full of dragons that regularly migrate to their mating grounds (and so do the nekoru in "Who Is Queen?"), so maybe they just stopped by there, or the Rundvelts are their mating grounds, and that's how they came to ally with the Olesians. Between the repurposed artwork and the Stargate-related name, I'd be surprised if Creative was comfortable bringing up the Olesians again, though, so we might as well say they all died in the Invasion or during the Rift Era and call it a day...

I've looked closely at the art on Goblin Warchief again, and his equipment seems to resemble equipment we've seen in Benalia. His sword has a similar design as Short Sword and Sword of Truth and Justice. The ribcage-like stripe things on his breastplate resemble those Danitha Capashen, Paragon has on hers, and the furrows on the helmet vaguely resemble other Benalish helmets, most notably the guy in Eviscerate's artwork. Maybe my reference pool is too small because we didn't see that much of the plane as a whole in Dominaria (*cough*onesetisntenough*cough*), but this stuff looks like it could have been pillaged from Benalish toops, which would also suggest South Aerona...

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:37 pm 
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I'm not quite done going through all the material and drawing all the connections, but I'll go ahead and set up the skeleton structure for my findings about the anthology stories and their respective settings, which was the basic idea behind this thread in the first place. I'll use a separate post for each anthology and then by and by fill in my notes (I think doing everything in one post might end up being too long for the character limit). I'll leave out the stories that explicitly state their location and that have no particularly interesting information in them.

Tapestries

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:37 pm 
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Distant Planes

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:38 pm 
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The Colors of Magic

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:38 pm 
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The Myths of Magic

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:39 pm 
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The Dragons of Magic

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:39 pm 
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The Secrets of Magic

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:39 pm 
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The Monsters of Magic

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 5:59 pm 
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It's getting late in my timezone and I also have to whip the notes into shape and turn them into coherent posts before sharing them, which means I'll continue tomorrow. :sleep:

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 1:49 pm 
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A quick cross-over from Twitter:

WotC_Ethan wrote:
Digging deep into the http://multiverseinreview.blogspot.com archives for research purposes. Did you know that Tahngarth was 11 years old when he became the first mate of the Weatherlight? I guess minotaurs mature faster than humans.
Rath and Storm might suggest something like that, yeah. As Tahngarth himself says in "Tahngarth's Tale": "It was hard to judge the age of humans, but I knew they got their beards later than minotaurs grew their horns, and Gerrard already had a beard the first time he joined our crew" (p. 48). Granted, I don't know what that means for their overall maturation process, but then again, 11 years on Dominaria are also a little bit longer than 11 years on Earth, so...maybe? Not that the ages of the Weatherlight characters are the most reliable thing ever, though.

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 3:00 pm 
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The Olesians on Dominaria might also live in the Rundvelt range, though, but maybe the goblins stopped bothering them after they held back Pashalik Mons and his raiders and focused on the human villages instead. The Nalathni Dragons themselves might have flown in from somewhere else, maybe an island. The Dragons of Magic is full of dragons that regularly migrate to their mating grounds (and so do the nekoru in "Who Is Queen?"), so maybe they just stopped by there, or the Rundvelts are their mating grounds, and that's how they came to ally with the Olesians. Between the repurposed artwork and the Stargate-related name, I'd be surprised if Creative was comfortable bringing up the Olesians again, though, so we might as well say they all died in the Invasion or during the Rift Era and call it a day...


Our general philosophy on this kind of thing could be summarized as "That Old Thing You Liked Is Probably Still There." Slivers? Didn't appear on cards in Dominaria, but they weren't wiped out off-camera or anything. The Olesian really looks like a plains-dweller to me, so we need a mountain range adjacent to a plains.

Quote:
I've looked closely at the art on Goblin Warchief again, and his equipment seems to resemble equipment we've seen in Benalia. His sword has a similar design as Short Sword and Sword of Truth and Justice. The ribcage-like stripe things on his breastplate resemble those Danitha Capashen, Paragon has on hers, and the furrows on the helmet vaguely resemble other Benalish helmets, most notably the guy in Eviscerate's artwork. Maybe my reference pool is too small because we didn't see that much of the plane as a whole in Dominaria (*cough*onesetisntenough*cough*), but this stuff looks like it could have been pillaged from Benalish toops, which would also suggest South Aerona...


Well-spotted! That is definitely a Benalish sword. So Goblin Warchief looted a Benalish sword...

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 3:53 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
The Olesians on Dominaria might also live in the Rundvelt range, though, but maybe the goblins stopped bothering them after they held back Pashalik Mons and his raiders and focused on the human villages instead. The Nalathni Dragons themselves might have flown in from somewhere else, maybe an island. The Dragons of Magic is full of dragons that regularly migrate to their mating grounds (and so do the nekoru in "Who Is Queen?"), so maybe they just stopped by there, or the Rundvelts are their mating grounds, and that's how they came to ally with the Olesians. Between the repurposed artwork and the Stargate-related name, I'd be surprised if Creative was comfortable bringing up the Olesians again, though, so we might as well say they all died in the Invasion or during the Rift Era and call it a day...


Our general philosophy on this kind of thing could be summarized as "That Old Thing You Liked Is Probably Still There." Slivers? Didn't appear on cards in Dominaria, but they weren't wiped out off-camera or anything. The Olesian really looks like a plains-dweller to me, so we need a mountain range adjacent to a plains.
Okay, yeah, I totally respect that. I don't really get plain-dweller vibes from that Olesian, but who knows. Though honestly, if we take into account that Goblin Warchief, who has both the Rundvelt goblins and Pashalik Mons in his flavour text, is walking around with Benalish loot, that mountain range adjacent to a plains you are looking for could well be the one south of Sursi and east of Janar we've been bouncing around. Sursi is a Benalish protectorate, and I still think that particular mountain range is obscure enough in the grander scheme of things that it could be the Rundvelt range, including Olesians living nearby. The Nalathni Dragons might live on an island somewhere and only stop by the Rundvelt range every few years or so to mate. Which would also provide you with the option of picking an unnamed island in the Domains and labelling it 'Nalathni' if you feel like it. Or maybe the dragons come from all over the place and only meet at the Rundvelts, I suppose there wouldn't be much sense in them having mating grounds if they all lived in the same place anyway...

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 4:52 pm 
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By the way, is there an explicit confirmation somewhere on which continent Losanon (the Thran city state) used to lie? I've been going through The Thran a little bit on the side to find out, but there was nothing concrete in the first 15 chapters, but if you've already figured it out, that would save me the trouble. Knowing where Losanon was is the only way we could possibly figure out where that dragon city in "Hero of the People" was...

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