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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:56 am 
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They're true, but not related to employment as an artist. It's the same law that would have allowed someone, before orientation was a protected class, to sue for damages from the person who outed them if someone outed as gay them publicly and to their employer to get them fired -- the fact was true, and the presenting of it resulted in the breaking of a contract, leading to economic harm. (now that orientation is a protected class, they would instead have anti-discrimination against their employer, which is different) Terese doesn't have the recourse because Wizards does commission work, and there is no contract representing a continuing economic relationship (they'd cover their ass in that regard), but someone in a different employment status WOULD, whether you think they "deserve" to be unemployable or no.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:02 am 
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Are you really trying to compare firing someone for being an antisemitic conspiracy theorist to firing someone for being gay?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:23 am 
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It's a personal trait that may be concealed and does not (usually) effect their work. One is now a protected class, but before the court decision that established it, the law would make no distinction in this case. The same law applies to these instances now as could have applied to those issues before. Legally, the standard is this

1) The existence of a contractual relationship or beneficial business relationship between two parties.
2) Knowledge of that relationship by a third party.
3) Intent of the third party to induce a party to the relationship to breach the relationship.
4) Lack of any privilege on the part of the third party to induce such a breach.
5) The contractual relationship is breached.
6) Damage to the party against whom the breach occurs.

As is typical of law, you're not excused if "that person was a bad person at heart". If you punch a nazi sympathizer in the face and break their nose, assuming the nazi was not actively breaking the law (which might typify it as a citizen's arrest) or presenting a clear and present danger to your life or property (in which case, self defense may apply), it's still assault even if they're an "evil" person. The comparison to getting a person fired for being outed as something I would expect you to have sympathy for was meant to highlight that the quality on which you are filtering the information is not one that has relevance to the law.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:26 am 
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Cato wrote:
Are you really trying to compare firing someone for being an antisemitic conspiracy theorist to firing someone for being gay?

Insofar as neither are relevant to performing a job you've been hired to do.
This is explicitly NOT about a moral stance regarding factors outside her ability to perform a job.
It's no more moral to demand her termination for having bad opinions online than to let her go because she's gay.

But further, it's under the issue by whose AUTHORITY those who demand to be rid of her act upon. This is the problem with mob justice, because it has no legal or personal authority gifted to it other than by writ of fear. "If you don't do X, we'll do Y".

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:37 am 
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1) The existence of a contractual relationship or beneficial business relationship between two parties.

Didn't you just say that Wizards doesn't have a contractual relationship with Terese?

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It's no more moral to demand her termination for having bad opinions online than to let her go because she's gay.

Why are you wording it as "bad opinions online" as if it was something like "liking socks with sandals" instead of "The Jews secretly control the US government"? Unless gay people start a world war and put tens of millions of people into death camps, I don't see how these are at all morally equivalent.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:41 am 
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Cato wrote:
Quote:
1) The existence of a contractual relationship or beneficial business relationship between two parties.

Didn't you just say that Wizards doesn't have a contractual relationship with Terese?

I also said, many times before, that this particular law would not apply in this particular case. I have been trying to explain for some time now why it could apply in a similar (but not identical) case of more standard employment being terminated for the exact same reason.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:50 am 
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Cato wrote:
Why are you wording it as "bad opinions online" as if it was something like "liking socks with sandals" instead of "The Jews secretly control the US government"? Unless gay people start a world war and put tens of millions of people into death camps, I don't see how these are at all morally equivalent.

Because it is not illegal to say insane things with which society disagrees. You want to rebuke her, that is one thing, but no mob has the right to interfere with her life anymore than she has the right to interfere with theirs.

You find the statement morally repugnant? So do I. Is it causing real active, measurable harm, not theoretical harm, but is it directly linked to an actual illegal activity with which she is involved? What's more, I've not seen her actually say that, but rather just associate with those who reportedly do. (Legitimately mean, "I have not seen her say these things" not that she hasn't said them)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:31 am 
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Hey Everyone!

I've been watching this thread and I know that this current discussion means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I have no interest on weighing in on the discussion itself, I just wanted to drop in to thank everyone for keeping it civil and ask that you all continue on in that manner. You folks are a good group here. I love that you can disagree with one another and articulate your points without devolving into the worst aspects of Internet discourse. So definitely keep that up!

:thumbsup:

Go Go Gadget Diplomacy!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:57 am 
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Because it is not illegal to say insane things with which society disagrees.

Well it's also not illegal to fire her, and even Tevish agrees on that. So if we're just going by legal rather than moral standards, this is an open and shut case.

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What's more, I've not seen her actually say that, but rather just associate with those who reportedly do. (Legitimately mean, "I have not seen her say these things" not that she hasn't said them)

I mean she favorited tweets that said those things, it's not just people she followed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:24 am 
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Cato wrote:
Well it's also not illegal to fire her, and even Tevish agrees on that. So if we're just going by legal rather than moral standards, this is an open and shut case.

True, but the discussion I started never specifically referenced Terese's case either, I merely brought up the broad topic because of what we've seen occurring in industries and the general disposition of the public.

I, however, still vehemently disagree that it is healthy for our society to police morals rather than enforce laws. The end consequences have shown in history time and again that it is dangerous for liberty itself.

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Quote:
What's more, I've not seen her actually say that, but rather just associate with those who reportedly do. (Legitimately mean, "I have not seen her say these things" not that she hasn't said them)

I mean she favorited tweets that said those things, it's not just people she followed.

I have complicated feelings on the matter, because regardless of the despicable content of those posts (and to a degree the absurdity) it was not something relevant to her job. I might not like what she did, but that doesn't mean I feel she should be fired.

But really, it isn't even the fact WotC severed ties with her that bothers me (mostly), because they are able to choose with whom they work. It's that it's an external reason they did so in response to an outrage mob. If they'd simply stopped working with her, if this wasn't a public spectacle, I'm not sure I'd have noticed her absence, but it has been made a spectacle, and that worries me a great deal more because of the escalation of the matter. If you take away a person's ability to earn a living, not just being dismissed from one position, then what becomes of them?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:40 am 
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Ugh, late to the party

I don't like the idea of firing people for things unrelated to their work. Mainly, for two reasons:

1) It leaves people to linger with only their "bad" traits and unable to contribute to the world in the ways they've developed their skills through their trades. If you take away the nonracist drone work a racist does and the person can't get anything else nonracist to make up for it, all that energy now goes into racist stuff.

2) In case that person does something that harms another, it limits what can be taken from the perpetrator to the victim. On one side, you get post-first World War Germany, where the weight of the financial burden led to the events of the second. On the other, you make the victim take a loss.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:38 pm 
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So, happy Independence Day for everyone that pertains to.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pm 
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I feel like I really need to downsize my collection because there are heaps of decks I dont think I've ever even played
And yet I worked on them, so I'm reluctant to part with them

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:40 am 
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Maybe adopt a "play it once" attitiude? Walk into your game store, play a game, or a bunch of games that day and sell the deck before you walk out.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:14 am 
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TPmanW wrote:
Maybe adopt a "play it once" attitiude? Walk into your game store, play a game, or a bunch of games that day and sell the deck before you walk out.

That's actually going to be fairly difficult.
None of the local stores survived the lockdown.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:26 am 
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All fully folded? That's rough as hell.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:27 am 
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Barinellos wrote:
TPmanW wrote:
Maybe adopt a "play it once" attitiude? Walk into your game store, play a game, or a bunch of games that day and sell the deck before you walk out.

That's actually going to be fairly difficult.
None of the local stores survived the lockdown.

OH my, that's quite sad. My town only has one, but it looks to be doing alright.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:26 am 
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Today I had a dream where Katara went full fascist and she and her cultists built a wall while Aang fought her.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:00 pm 
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Today I had a dream where Katara went full fascist and she and her cultists built a wall while Aang fought her.

Let me just check my book of dream interpretations. Yes, according to Freud this dream is about your mother.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

TPrizesW
TPortfolioW


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:53 pm 
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TPmanW wrote:
Today I had a dream where Katara went full fascist and she and her cultists built a wall while Aang fought her.

Let me just check my book of dream interpretations. Yes, according to Freud this dream is about your mother.
Sometimes a scepter is only a scepter. No, wait, bad example...

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