It is currently Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:23 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5705 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 282 ... 286  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:29 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar 26, 2016
Posts: 132
I'm ok with them making Ugin an Elder Dragon, but it's weird to make him a direct sibling of the others (except Asmadi)...cause if he is, why didn't he show up in Legends with the others? Even their cousin Asmadi showed up. Did he leave Dominaria before the Elder Dragon Wars ended?

I question the decision to make them so weak to begin with. It could go in a good direction eventually, but it completely changes early Dominaria history (or at least, what we thought we knew about Dominaria history). It honestly feels like Magic is copying Warcraft, as this story has a lot of similarities to the origin story of the Dragon Aspects, where they were small and weak and not yet true dragons, and were slowly learning how to think whilst having to fight off enemies. I really hope the hunters are not intended to be humans. Dragons should be an older race than humans, IMO.

_________________
Freyalise Forever.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:44 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 12, 2015
Posts: 691
Jman22 wrote:
The more I think on it, the more I realize they don't want to reward people for being invested in their story.
That is provably wrong. Take the entire idea of Sagas as cards. In-universe myths, legends, and histories, most taken from real world sources few players have read, then constructed and illustrated in cultural- and period-appropriate styles and using media that the fictional people telling those stories would likely have chosen themselves. In fact, the entire card set of Dominaria is overflowing with rewards for players who have ever had any level of investment in the story.

Return to Dominaria the story is another matter, but even that had a lot of good nuggets at the beginning.

_________________


"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins."

"Remember, dear friends: when we announce something and you imagine it, the odds that we made exactly that thing are zero."---Kelly Digges


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:21 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10172
astarael7 wrote:
In-universe myths, legends, and histories,

This does sort of pop up an issue I'm increasingly having with the story.
Myths that aren't myths.
It makes the world tiny and measured when you leave out the mystery or grand scope of a myth by nailing down that everything is factual.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:15 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 20, 2015
Posts: 115
Preferred Pronoun Set: He/him/his
Barinellos wrote:
astarael7 wrote:
In-universe myths, legends, and histories,

This does sort of pop up an issue I'm increasingly having with the story.
Myths that aren't myths.
It makes the world tiny and measured when you leave out the mystery or grand scope of a myth by nailing down that everything is factual.
It's hard to make things grand and mysterious when half the mythological characters are still alive. The average person thinks of them as myths, which I think Teferi illustrated. He's trying to disappear into time and people recognized his name as a Bad Thing, but the characters themselves don't seem to interested in making history less clear. How would our own real world myths suffer if we could just talk to a 4000 year old guy and be like "What was ancient Egypt ACTUALLY like? Ok did the Greeks really do these things?" It's hard to have a blurry, mythical past when it's still poking the present like "Hey. Hey! We're trying to keep you alive!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:46 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10081
That's why fantasy writing tends to have a different scale. Because when you're inventing a universe, there's always an older fish (at least until you get to Equilor.)

The Thran were old. Unfathomable by the civilizations that followed them, the story of their rise and fall was unknown even to such giants as Urza. When we saw their story in The Thran it retained something of a mythical edge despite inventing and humanizing the players by keeping a consistent tone and presenting a universe that had wonder (and horror) in it even for the people who lived there. It was built up, and it was epic, both the decline and fall of their civilization into Yawgmoth's hands and the revelations of the multiverse granted by Dyfed. It read decently as an origin for a mad god (as Vile Bargain called him).

The Elder Dragons were older even than the Thran. True, there were non-completely-insane survivors: all six of them. So presumably you could ask Nicol Bolas (or a friendlier elder like Chromium Rhuell) how the war went down, but their colored perspective would still be grand in scope, and different from taking the reader to those events and showing them objective fact. We know that the Elder Dragons reigned in time immemorial -- that's Dominarian history. And we know their rule failed, with only a handfull of survivors (The current count is at 7). But it's interwoven with origin stories -- how did the wurms come into being? In the time before time, when the Elder Dragons fought, some of the losers were stripped of their limbs and cast to earth becoming the Elder Land Wurms (by the way, errata to make that an Elder when?). How did it happen? What were their lives and situations really like. We have to rely on 5 (or 6 or 7) fairly unreliable narrators quite likely to build up their own grandeur.

Instead of getting that colored, mythic tale, that's probably mostly true but is made important by slight distortions or coloring of the facts, we get a "reliable" vision of a spirit journey and... It's not very epic. I don't hate every part of it: the elders falling from the sky, coming into being full formed with knowledge of their names, was actually a nice touch. But Nicol Bolas was pinned under a tree? One of the first ones was unceremoniously dispatched by some mortal hunters? It makes them feel less like powerful progenitors and more like castoffs. What's more, some of the choices are... not excellent. Like the decision to have an elder dragon utter "Ouch" as its first word. If you want a mythic feel, maybe its first utterance is a cry, or even a moan of pain, but you don't enunciate "Ouch". You enunciate "Ouch" for comedy!

It's the little things, it really is. The big movements are mostly alright, even good. Mostly. But the small details seem chosen to make the story feel immediate and relatable when they should have been chosen to feel large and impressive. If this were cinema, I'd probably call poor directing, using the wrong angles and shots that fail to produce the appropriate mood. Imagine if in Jurassic Park, the entire scene with the kids in the truck being attacked by the T-rex was done with a fixed camera that could fit the whole Rex in the frame. That's not nearly as dramatic or scary as being in the car with the kids, seeing only its jaws, up close and held at bay by cracking plexiglass. Imagine if in Lord of the Rings the shots of the fellowship walking about to that sweeping Howard Shore score weren't sweeping wide shots that showed off the scale of Middle Earth/New Zealand but were rather quick cuts between the trudging faces of our leads. Not nearly as epic. That's the sort of mistake that's being made here. The content isn't wrong, but the presentation is off.

_________________
"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

The Coalition/Phyrexian War Game Rises Again


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:55 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7080
Today's UR (Magic Story): Chronicle of Bolas: The First Lesson

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:40 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2856
Anyone gets the impression that the dragonlords of Tarkir were Ugin's attempt to recreate his long dead siblings?

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:49 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7080
I have been getting the feeling that the dragon storm is maybe some captured part of the Ur-Dragon that Ugin pinned to Tarkir, much like he helped trap the Eldrazi on Zendikar. Maybe not enough of the Ur-Dragon to spawn real Elder Dragons, but enough of it to keep coughing up dragons in general.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:58 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10081
I'm a little more OK with the human hunters if I'm right that the visit with Arcades implies that humans were living a basically neolithic existence until the Elder Dragons, particularly Arcades, invented civilization

Overall, I think the movements in this one were better. They still weren't perfect, and it still had a very down-to-earth feel that doesn't quite fit, but it wasn't as pronounced.

_________________
"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

The Coalition/Phyrexian War Game Rises Again


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:21 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 12, 2015
Posts: 691
Overall, I think the movements in this one were better. They still weren't perfect, and it still had a very down-to-earth feel that doesn't quite fit, but it wasn't as pronounced.
Is that maybe the point? That we are starting with the Elders before they are the grand, world-shaking, semi-mythical beings that are to the present day and watching them (Ugin and Nicol Bolas in particular) grow into that? And so the story is similarly starting from a grounded, ordinary perspective and gradually broadening a great grand epic? To mangle your Lord of the Rings analogy, we're nowhere near the departure of the Fellowship yet and a lot closer to the Bree-phase of the story.

_________________


"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins."

"Remember, dear friends: when we announce something and you imagine it, the odds that we made exactly that thing are zero."---Kelly Digges


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:29 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10172
astarael7 wrote:
Overall, I think the movements in this one were better. They still weren't perfect, and it still had a very down-to-earth feel that doesn't quite fit, but it wasn't as pronounced.
Is that maybe the point? That we are starting with the Elders before they are the grand, world-shaking, semi-mythical beings that are to the present day and watching them (Ugin and Nicol Bolas in particular) grow into that? And so the story is similarly starting from a grounded, ordinary perspective and gradually broadening a great grand epic? To mangle your Lord of the Rings analogy, we're nowhere near the departure of the Fellowship yet and a lot closer to the Bree-phase of the story.

To crib the LotR analogy though, this should be the Silmarillian with its nigh impenetrable and mythic nature.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:45 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10081
astarael7 wrote:
Overall, I think the movements in this one were better. They still weren't perfect, and it still had a very down-to-earth feel that doesn't quite fit, but it wasn't as pronounced.
Is that maybe the point? That we are starting with the Elders before they are the grand, world-shaking, semi-mythical beings that are to the present day and watching them (Ugin and Nicol Bolas in particular) grow into that? And so the story is similarly starting from a grounded, ordinary perspective and gradually broadening a great grand epic? To mangle your Lord of the Rings analogy, we're nowhere near the departure of the Fellowship yet and a lot closer to the Bree-phase of the story.

OK, first, my analogy was to cinematography and making sure that the framing details fit the nature of the action -- hence why I also used Jurassic Park as an example the other way around.

Second, do you really want to treat Elder Dragons like they're Hobbits? One of these things has cred as the primal rulers of the world, masters of all they surveyed in the Age of Myth. The other is known for their staggering lack of ambition. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin could putter around Bree, but though we see their origin in The Silmarilion, entities like Morgoth, Feanor, Melain, or Glaurung never get that kind of treatment. If Tolkien and wanted to go human and relatable, one could point out that the first act of Melkor is to be that kid in music class who wants daddy to hear him, and thus rather than playing the piece right just honks his recorder as loud as he freaking can. But Tolkien doesn't present it that way, he wouldn't present it that way. That's how Douglass Adams or Terry Pratchett might present it.

Ixalan used a lot of this sort of presentation, but Ixalan was meant as a farce. If the same reasoning applies here, it was the wrong choice to take.

_________________
"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

The Coalition/Phyrexian War Game Rises Again


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:19 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2856
Well, we know Elder Dragons had to be born, because Nicole is a planeswalker. This implies a vulnerability at some point, unlike gods, angels, demons and archons.

Now you could have a vague childhood narrative, like Zeus being nurtured in Crete. But this drives the point across well.

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:23 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10081
Except they go and have them born fully-formed, quite a lot like gods or Angels. The elders feel at least as capable in the moment of their creation as Tiana back in the Dominaria story, and far less confused -- Tiana has to be told who and what she is. There's discovery of the universe outside themselves, but there is no 'childhood', just early days treated as though they were a vulnerable, childish phase where none had to exist.

_________________
"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

The Coalition/Phyrexian War Game Rises Again


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:48 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 12, 2015
Posts: 691
OK, first, my analogy was to cinematography and making sure that the framing details fit the nature of the action -- hence why I also used Jurassic Park as an example the other way around.
The cinematography of the departure of the Fellowship was appropriate to that moment of the story because the hero had now taken up the call and so story had earned a small triumphal procession. It was not the very first shot of the main narrative (as this is for these eight chapters).

Quote:
Second, do you really want to treat Elder Dragons like they're Hobbits?
No, I want them treated like characters. Which means I want an arc. I absolutely do not want Nicol Bolas (since he's really the focus here) springing fully formed from the forehead of the Ur-Dragon, already equipped with 7 just-started schemes, 9 plots just coming to fulfillment, 3 inter-planer cabals, and the full might of a pre-mending planeswalker. That's basically what I've already gotten for the last decade.

Also the interesting bits of The Silmarilion were those bits where characters either rose or fell spectacularly. So I will double down on saying that Kate Elliot using effective framing and tone for the story she is choosing to tell.

_________________


"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins."

"Remember, dear friends: when we announce something and you imagine it, the odds that we made exactly that thing are zero."---Kelly Digges


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:40 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2856
Nice story today. Like how while Ugin is the more anti-violence of the two, he still sees humans as frail, while Nicol, in spite of being driven by hatred, begins appreciating our ambition and greed.

Also, that dragon hunter cult was creepy. And Palladia-Mors being an awesome brute like always.

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:53 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7080
Sorry, I was too busy yesterday to get around to posting the link.

Yesterday's UR (Magic Story): CHRONICLE OF BOLAS: THINGS UNSEEN

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:11 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 24, 2013
Posts: 259
I think the best things about these stories is seeing how the tribes are dealing with their new dragon overlords and the guilt that keeps crawling across Yasovas face. The stories about Ugin and Bolas seem like the subplot and are kind of boring to me so far.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:33 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 7080
I think she recognized those dragon markers as the same as the ones that she made to help cause the Tarkir dragons turn on Ugin during his fight with Bolas. I also suspect that next week's story will see Bolas use the same spell to cause the people of the mountain to turn on each other in a self-massacre.

_________________
magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:31 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 2856
The best thing about this saga is that it illustrates Bolas as really an overcompensating **** trying to pretend he's an eldritch god, when even without this his date of birth is 25 thousand years ago - many thousands of years after humans evolved.

With the Tarkir elders being even younger, I can't wait for someone to say that to their face.

_________________
Matahouroa
Planeswalker's Guide
The Story

My Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/Carliro
Image


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5705 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 282 ... 286  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group