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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 6:56 pm 
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I believe that all of the Thran city states are in the eastern 2/3rds of Terisiare. Thran cities and facilities on other continents are mere colonies of the Thran Empire. The Thran p. 22 states that the city states are all connected by a long highway. Pages 126-128 describe Losanon.

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 7:46 pm 
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Okay, yeah, I totally respect that. I don't really get plain-dweller vibes from that Olesian, but who knows. Though honestly, if we take into account that Goblin Warchief, who has both the Rundvelt goblins and Pashalik Mons in his flavour text, is walking around with Benalish loot, that mountain range adjacent to a plains you are looking for could well be the one south of Sursi and east of Janar we've been bouncing around. Sursi is a Benalish protectorate, and I still think that particular mountain range is obscure enough in the grander scheme of things that it could be the Rundvelt range, including Olesians living nearby. The Nalathni Dragons might live on an island somewhere and only stop by the Rundvelt range every few years or so to mate. Which would also provide you with the option of picking an unnamed island in the Domains and labelling it 'Nalathni' if you feel like it. Or maybe the dragons come from all over the place and only meet at the Rundvelts, I suppose there wouldn't be much sense in them having mating grounds if they all lived in the same place anyway...


Yeah, I'm definitely leaning toward that little mountain range just south of Sursi for all the reasons you gave above. I'm going to finish re-reading Ashes of the Sun, just in case there are any other clues, before I make decision.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:39 am 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
I believe that all of the Thran city states are in the eastern 2/3rds of Terisiare. Thran cities and facilities on other continents are mere colonies of the Thran Empire. The Thran p. 22 states that the city states are all connected by a long highway. Pages 126-128 describe Losanon.
Thanks! The reference to that highway was just what I needed. I even remember coming across it, but apparently I failed to make that connection. I was a little confused initially because Multiverse in Review claims Losanon is in Jamuraa in the review of The Thran, but I think it's easy to misread the passage where they fly over Losanon to mean it's in Jamuraa. I've added my two cents on "Hero of the People" to the The Dragons of Magic post on the previous page ;)

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Just so it doesn't go unnoticed, I've updated some of the posts about the short stories on the previous page. And since I've brought it up before, I'm now absolutely convinced that "A Nut By Any Other Name" in The Secrets of Magic is set in the forested area around Barbar. The details line up way too perfectly for it not to take place there.

I'm currently trying to figure out whether "Like Spider's Silk" could work on Varnalca. In fact, that story was a huge factor in motivating me to even start this project. I've had this reference from Ashes of the Sun constantly at the back of my head (“the long peace in the farmlands of Varnalca and the elven alliance that extended it”, p. 81), and maybe this could line up...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:37 am 
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“Foulmere”

Likely location: an island close to Sarpadia

The ties to Sarpadia are very explicit, though I can't entirely shake off the feeling that the story keeps the fate of Sarpadia deliberately ambiguous and can't decide whether it's supposed to be set in mainland Sarpadia or not. Here we go:

- wood gnomes are believed to be descendents of those driven from Havenwood centuries ago
- Foulmere itself is the region around the delta of the Kron Lu River
- “the forest was being cleared for lumber and farmland” (p. 90)
- The dobhéma have no homeland and travel “across the continent” (p. 94)
--> Which continent? Sarpadia? The flavour text on Brassclaw Orcs suggests otherwise, but who knows...

- Peter and the summoned dwarf can communicate in “Old Sarpadian, the ancient common tongue of both Icatia and realm [sic] of the Ebon Hand, and for over a millennium since, the lingua franca of the continent and surrounding islands” (p. 108), though the other character usually communicate in “Modern Sarpadian” (p. 109)
--> Could mean that the dwarf comes from a community of dwarves that are descendents of Sarpadian refugees (maybe those mentioned in “The Lady of the Mountain” that were supposedly teleported away?), says he comes from “the City of Deep Keep” (p. 109), wherever that is
--> More importantly, what does the bold section mean exactly? I guess it means Old Sarpadian continued to be spoken in Sarpadia proper for about a millennium after the story of Fallen Empires... and then what? Does it mean nobody survived in Sarpadia beyond that point, or did the language change enough to simply not be considered Old Sarpadian anymore? An earlier part of the story suggests that people still carried on in Sarpadia until the Ice Age, which would fit the “millennium”, but it might have been re-settled in modern times?
- The story suggests that Foulmere might never recover from the planeswalker battle and that the delta is basically gone, so the region might not look like a swamp on modern maps (cf. p. 114)

Then there is apotential problem with the idea that Jinuoe is a planet. The dwarf claims to be “from a land with no star like to that one” (p. 109), referring to Jinuoe. That could be the case if Jinuoe was a star that was never visible in the northern hemisphere (and maybe not even that), but if it’s actually supposed to be a planet, I don’t think that’s possible. Granted, I'm not an astronomer, but I'm pretty sure planets can't be completely invisible from some parts of Earth (or Dominaria) all the time. Now, I don't want to invalidate the info that was established in the podcast, so how can we try and save this? The dwarf can communicate in Old Sarpadian (pp. 108-109), but technically it's never stated that he was summoned from Dominaria, so maybe he's from another plane, but his ancestors were brought there from Sarpadia, and maybe they kept the language alive as a kind of temple language (like our Latin) or something? In fact, he asks Peter "Where from, sir? From what world taken [...] or are ye local folk?" (p. 109), so he seems to assume he's from another plane himself. He also seems to speak Old Sarpadian really well, and dwarves live for centuries, so I guess it could for all intents and purposes be his native language that simply hasn't changed much since his ancestors somehow ended up on another plane. We see a similar language situation in Planeswalker, where Xantcha and the other planeswalker companions can communicate in a mix of various elven dialects from different planes, so stuff like that seems to happen.


Last but not least, we don't know where Akkat is, but unlike "Dual Loyalties", this story is clearly set on Dominaria. Here is what the story says about Akkat:

It has a university, “golden domes and marble boulevards” (p. 87), and it's said to be “a somewhat more sophisticated land: Akkat the Mighty, Citadel of All Knowledge” (p. 88). I'm inclined to put this in south-eastern Jamuraa. In fact, I suppose it could work as a Suq’Ata colony near the coast, close to the setting of "Who Is Queen?". Could be in the jungle or in the mountains, but there seem to be some flat, open expanses there as well. Alternatively, it could be on the Horn of Plenty, the region where Karakas is. I just think the name and the golden domes might work for a Suq'Ata colony, and since it's supposed to be such a big deal, I'm inclined to put it in a part of Dominaria that we haven't seen that much of and that's far away from more well-known locations. Putting it in south-eastern Jamuraa would also give it the advantage of being not too far away from the islands close to Sarpadia, especially those west of Sarpadia, since Peter left Akkat to live in Foulmere.


I tend to deviate from the opinions of a lot of Vorthoses on the matter of Sarpadia. Pete Venters was clearly of the opinion that the Sarpadian humans, dwarfs, merfolk and elves were completely killed off and/or driven away from the continent. A lot of people point to the Fifth Edition Brassclaw Orcs flavor text (which I'd wager Pete wrote; he clearly wrote a lot of Fifth Edition flavor text) as evidence to support Pete's claims. I'm found clues in my research of published material that there are still humans still living on Sarpadia, and probably elves and dwarfs too. We know that the merfolk specifically were driven away by the homarids, though.

This is all a rather longwinded way of saying, "I think 'Foulmere' takes place on mainland Sarpadia, though it's far from certain."

Quote:
“The Old Way to Vacar Slab”

Likely location: the Tivan Desert

- “a hostile confrontation with Aerathi marauders in the foothills just outside of Kenlefia” (p. 333) is mentioned
- “custom demanded a proper mummification of the body to ensure the soul’s transit to the Otherworlds” (p. 334)
--> The dead in this story rise as semi-aware zombies if this doesn’t happen

The story is explicitly set on Dominaria, but the fact that the dead rise as zombies suggests this must be a larger area that is somehow cursed or just has some weird ambient magic. I've picked the Tivan Desert because the landscape and climate would fit, and there is plenty of room to dump all this stuff we've never heard of, most notably Kenlefia, which seems to be a nation (or maybe some kind of city state?). Plus, Aerathi marauders are mentioned, which would fit nicely with the fact that we've seen them in Southwest Jamuraa in Legends I, which isn't too far away.[/spoiler]


The mention of Aerathi made me think that Vacar Slab was in the Great Desert, which is just north of where the Aerathi live in the Legends I books.

„Hand of Justice“

Location: Zhalfir, Ki’pamu (explicitly stated, but misspelled as “Kipamu”)

Just one thing I wanted to mention:

- “The city was called Kipamu [sic], beside the blue ocean at the end of the Desert of Bones” (p. 245)
--> Eh, another short story that doesn’t line up with the Mirage map. Ki’pamu isn’t supposed to be anywhere near a desert, nor is it by the sea… Then again, the narrator of the frame narrative might have made a mistake, so we could explain it away… The Desert of Bones might just be another name for the Great Desert. It's also mentioned in the prequel "Angel of Vengeance" in The Colors of Magic (p. 4), and there are caravans and Viashino guides, so that could fit. (I'll admit that I had kinda forgotten the Mirage map existed, too, before you pointed it out).[/spoiler]


"Kipamu" is the original spelling. There was a mark on the Jamuraa map that looked like an apostrophe. It was enshrined into fanon on the Salvation wiki, and then made its way into official works from there. I believe it's mentioned in the Prophecy novel that both the city in Zhalfir and the Kipamu League in Northern Jamuraa were named after the same famous general.

“Dragon's Paw”

- The island of Tolaria used to lie west-northwest of Madara (if you compare the old Invasion map with the new one)
- From Tolaria, the dragon flies off into an unknown direction for a bit, but then turns east, crossing a large stretch of empty ocean until it arrives at a coast (p. 94)
- It then follows the shore northward while occasionally snatching “a small, screaming snack” from “the rolling plains” (p. 94)
--> This probably rules out Madara, as the west coast of Madara is the setting for Legends II and rolling plains don’t seem to fit there. This makes southwest Jamuraa the most likely candidate.

- It then reaches the north coast where it finds a familiar countryside with fields (p. 94)
--> This could be the Storm Coast near Buzzard’s Bay

- The story then skips a week, and the dragon has already destroyed five castles in the area, the latest of which is referred to as “the castle at Rushlim” (pp. 95-96). It then returns to Tolaria
--> Those castles and the place called Rushlim could be in the plains northwest of Arboria, the same plains where Amrouhaven is located. The general direction would fit, I’m pretty sure we haven’t seen that part of Jamuraa in Legends I or any other story, and the climate there seems to allow for fields and castles, if Amrouhaven is any indication


I agree, this is probably just west of Arboria somewhere.

Quote:
“The Blood of a Dragon”

Location: Vintara Forest (explicitly stated)

- There are Garan Elves in Vintara, i.e. the same elf race that lives in Tamingazin


Yeah, Pete Venters tried to fit the action of The Prodigal Sorcerer into Eastern Jamuraa, but eventually gave up on that and made a whole new continent for the book. This could be a sort of palimpsest of some old internal reference material. Of course, in-universe, the Garan Elves could have simply immigrated to Vintara at some point. Tamingazin wasn't their original homeland anyway.


Quote:
“Keldon Staredown”

Location: Keld (explicitly stated)

Further information:

- “On any good map of Keld, the village of Letha lay two days’ march south of the Parman border, nestled between two of the most forbidding peaks on the continent” (pp. 285-286)
- “Letha was little more than a way station for travelers to and from the Border Citadel, ten days’ march to the west” (p. 286)
- Port City is mentioned (p. 288), presumably located in Port Bay (see “Keldon Fire”)
- “the icy fjords of Vosok, three thousand miles away” (p. 290)[/spoiler]


Heh. I literally measured 3,000 miles on the globe to figure out where Vosok was (Just north of Stahaan).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:29 am 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
The other wrinkle is Nalathni Dragon and its Olesian allies. IIRC these are mentioned nowhere else. That makes me somewhat inclined to stick the Rundvelts on an island somewhere, not on mainland Aerona.
Oh wow, that's a Blast from the Past if I ever saw one. I had completely forgotten Nalathni Dragon even had flavour text. So you mean you'd maybe prefer an island to explain why we haven't seen more of the Nalathni Dragons and the Olesians? There certainly isn't any lore about them in any of the books or any other source that I'm aware of, no. You might want to check the issue of the Duelist that had the card as an insert, but my guess is that the flavour text maybe wasn't even coordinated with the Creative Team of the time. If you simply google "Olesian", you get a culture from Stargate, and the art itself was a repurposed sketch for a novel cover. Then again, Nalathni Dragon probably predates the Olesians from Stargate. Both the card and the original Stargate movie are from 1994, but I don't know if the Olesians were featured in that film (I have absolutely no clue about that franchise).

The Olesians on Dominaria might also live in the Rundvelt range, though, but maybe the goblins stopped bothering them after they held back Pashalik Mons and his raiders and focused on the human villages instead. The Nalathni Dragons themselves might have flown in from somewhere else, maybe an island. The Dragons of Magic is full of dragons that regularly migrate to their mating grounds (and so do the nekoru in "Who Is Queen?"), so maybe they just stopped by there, or the Rundvelts are their mating grounds, and that's how they came to ally with the Olesians. Between the repurposed artwork and the Stargate-related name, I'd be surprised if Creative was comfortable bringing up the Olesians again, though, so we might as well say they all died in the Invasion or during the Rift Era and call it a day...


I did some quick digging in the Stargate wiki, and discovered that their Olesians were introduced in the Atlantis spinoff in 2005, so Nalathni Dragon definitely used it first. That probably doesn't matter, but I figured that other people might get as curious as I was, so there it is.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:29 pm 
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Aaarrrgh wrote:
I did some quick digging in the Stargate wiki, and discovered that their Olesians were introduced in the Atlantis spinoff in 2005, so Nalathni Dragon definitely used it first. That probably doesn't matter, but I figured that other people might get as curious as I was, so there it is.
Hey, that's awesome, thanks! Does that mean WotC can sue Stargate for a few millions and use the money to have Jeff Grubb or Scott McGough write more Magic novels? No? Hrrrm, okay.


WotC_Ethan wrote:
I tend to deviate from the opinions of a lot of Vorthoses on the matter of Sarpadia. Pete Venters was clearly of the opinion that the Sarpadian humans, dwarfs, merfolk and elves were completely killed off and/or driven away from the continent. A lot of people point to the Fifth Edition Brassclaw Orcs flavor text (which I'd wager Pete wrote; he clearly wrote a lot of Fifth Edition flavor text) as evidence to support Pete's claims. I'm found clues in my research of published material that there are still humans still living on Sarpadia, and probably elves and dwarfs too. We know that the merfolk specifically were driven away by the homarids, though.

This is all a rather longwinded way of saying, "I think 'Foulmere' takes place on mainland Sarpadia, though it's far from certain."
Hmmm... The only hint of people still living in Sarpadia that I can remember right now is when they call one of the redshirts on the original Weatherlight an Icatian, but that at least could be explained by saying the people on the surrounding islands consider themselves Icatians. I can see the dilemma from WotC's perspective when it comes to the fate of Sarpadia, though. On the one hand, you might be looking for ways to make the people happy who have fond memories of Fallen Empires, and having all of Sarpadia be a lost continent with only thrulls and thallids kinda seems like a waste and doesn't give you much to work with in that regard. On the other hand, just pulling a "Surprise! Sarpadia was just fine all along!" would contradict the spirit of Fallen Empires and would almost certainly clash with the expectations of most Vorthoses (myself included). I've thought about this a bit over the last two days, and I could imagine a pretty solid compromise that could please both sides.

Digression incoming:

Spoiler



WotC_Ethan wrote:
The mention of Aerathi made me think that Vacar Slab was in the Great Desert, which is just north of where the Aerathi live in the Legends I books.
That surprises me, though. The Great Desert is where the viashino from Mirage block live, right? I just think it would be odd to have a considerable area that's cursed to raise people as zombies so close to the setting of Mirage block, not to mention cultures we've never heard of outside of this short story. Plus, the area around Kenlefia and Vacar Slab seems to be kinda rocky and to have some canyons here and there, so that could also suggest the Tivan Desert rather than the Great Desert. We've heard of Aerathi berserkers in a lot of different places, so it doesn't necessarily have to be the area closest to the Blue Mountains above Tirras where they live in Legends I. Maybe I'll look at that story again to see if there's anything I missed.


WotC_Ethan wrote:
"Kipamu" is the original spelling. There was a mark on the Jamuraa map that looked like an apostrophe. It was enshrined into fanon on the Salvation wiki, and then made its way into official works from there.
Wait, really? That's hilarious. :V Well, it's kinda annoying, too, but it's a pretty cool anecdote.


WotC_Ethan wrote:
Yeah, Pete Venters tried to fit the action of The Prodigal Sorcerer into Eastern Jamuraa, but eventually gave up on that and made a whole new continent for the book. This could be a sort of palimpsest of some old internal reference material. Of course, in-universe, the Garan Elves could have simply immigrated to Vintara at some point. Tamingazin wasn't their original homeland anyway.
Oooh... oooh! :takei: So that's why they are there. That's enlightening, I've always assumed the author of that story simply was a big fan of The Prodigal Sorcerer or something. But yeah, when you look at the hints in that novel next to the map of Dominaria, I'm pretty sure they have to be from the Northland originally. I'm going to check that again to be sure, though, I've been wanting to make a thread about the Northland for ages anyway.


WotC_Ethan wrote:
So again, thanks to Pavor Nocturnus for the help. Never would have figured it out without ya'!
Thank you for the kind words on twitter btw! So the location of the Rundvelt range is for all intents and purposes canon now, right? I'm not gonna lie, the idea that I helped even the tiniest bit to establish the location of a place on Dominaria as canon - a place that has been named on a card from Alpha! - is in all honesty the coolest thing that has ever happened to me in my entire Magic playing career. And I'm saying that as someone who has been playing since 2001 and even opened a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Masters 25.

Speaking of twitter, I saw a really rude comment in that thread that attacked you for not sharing your reference map. I don't normally presume to speak for the rest of the fandom, but I want to apologise for that person's behaviour in the name of everyone who loves Dominaria. Not showing the map to the public is the smart thing to do. People who criticise this either don't understand the needs of the game or have no idea how tricky it is to find a proper place for every named location on Dominaria. As long as the public hasn't seen it, things can still be adjusted and possible errors corrected.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:02 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
I tend to deviate from the opinions of a lot of Vorthoses on the matter of Sarpadia. Pete Venters was clearly of the opinion that the Sarpadian humans, dwarfs, merfolk and elves were completely killed off and/or driven away from the continent. A lot of people point to the Fifth Edition Brassclaw Orcs flavor text (which I'd wager Pete wrote; he clearly wrote a lot of Fifth Edition flavor text) as evidence to support Pete's claims. I'm found clues in my research of published material that there are still humans still living on Sarpadia, and probably elves and dwarfs too. We know that the merfolk specifically were driven away by the homarids, though.

This is all a rather longwinded way of saying, "I think 'Foulmere' takes place on mainland Sarpadia, though it's far from certain."
Hmmm... The only hint of people still living in Sarpadia that I can remember right now is when they call one of the redshirts on the original Weatherlight an Icatian, but that at least could be explained by saying the people on the surrounding islands consider themselves Icatians. I can see the dilemma from WotC's perspective when it comes to the fate of Sarpadia, though. On the one hand, you might be looking for ways to make the people happy who have fond memories of Fallen Empires, and having all of Sarpadia be a lost continent with only thrulls and thallids kinda seems like a waste and doesn't give you much to work with in that regard. On the other hand, just pulling a "Surprise! Sarpadia was just fine all along!" would contradict the spirit of Fallen Empires and would almost certainly clash with the expectations of most Vorthoses (myself included). I've thought about this a bit over the last two days, and I could imagine a pretty solid compromise that could please both sides.

Digression incoming:

Spoiler



Yeah, something like this could be cool. The advantage of moving the timeline forward is that we can establish new facts.

Quote:
WotC_Ethan wrote:
The mention of Aerathi made me think that Vacar Slab was in the Great Desert, which is just north of where the Aerathi live in the Legends I books.
That surprises me, though. The Great Desert is where the viashino from Mirage block live, right? I just think it would be odd to have a considerable area that's cursed to raise people as zombies so close to the setting of Mirage block, not to mention cultures we've never heard of outside of this short story. Plus, the area around Kenlefia and Vacar Slab seems to be kinda rocky and to have some canyons here and there, so that could also suggest the Tivan Desert rather than the Great Desert. We've heard of Aerathi berserkers in a lot of different places, so it doesn't necessarily have to be the area closest to the Blue Mountains above Tirras where they live in Legends I. Maybe I'll look at that story again to see if there's anything I missed.


It's a very big desert, bigger than the entire continent of Corondor. Plenty of room for viashino and zombies to both be there, I think.

Quote:
WotC_Ethan wrote:
Yeah, Pete Venters tried to fit the action of The Prodigal Sorcerer into Eastern Jamuraa, but eventually gave up on that and made a whole new continent for the book. This could be a sort of palimpsest of some old internal reference material. Of course, in-universe, the Garan Elves could have simply immigrated to Vintara at some point. Tamingazin wasn't their original homeland anyway.
Oooh... oooh! :takei: So that's why they are there. That's enlightening, I've always assumed the author of that story simply was a big fan of The Prodigal Sorcerer or something. But yeah, when you look at the hints in that novel next to the map of Dominaria, I'm pretty sure they have to be from the Northland originally. I'm going to check that again to be sure, though, I've been wanting to make a thread about the Northland for ages anyway.


Yeah, I think they're from Northland or one of the islands north of Umber.

Quote:
WotC_Ethan wrote:
So again, thanks to Pavor Nocturnus for the help. Never would have figured it out without ya'!
Thank you for the kind words on twitter btw! So the location of the Rundvelt range is for all intents and purposes canon now, right? I'm not gonna lie, the idea that I helped even the tiniest bit to establish the location of a place on Dominaria as canon - a place that has been named on a card from Alpha! - is in all honesty the coolest thing that has ever happened to me in my entire Magic playing career. And I'm saying that as someone who has been playing since 2001 and even opened a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Masters 25.


:D

Quote:
Speaking of twitter, I saw a really rude comment in that thread that attacked you for not sharing your reference map. I don't normally presume to speak for the rest of the fandom, but I want to apologise for that person's behaviour in the name of everyone who loves Dominaria. Not showing the map to the public is the smart thing to do. People who criticise this either don't understand the needs of the game or have no idea how tricky it is to find a proper place for every named location on Dominaria. As long as the public hasn't seen it, things can still be adjusted and possible errors corrected.


Yeah, there are some toxic jerks on Twitter. I generally just block 'em and forget 'em.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:24 pm 
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I'd like to say this about Sarpadia and Sarpadians: I think there's ample evidence that humanoid civilization on/around Sarpadia isn't extinct. Here are my evidences, other than the Weatherlight red-shirt.

1) Somebody wrote and reads the volumes of Sarpadian Empires. True, the source could be a foreign scholar, but given the geographic isolation of Sarpadia, this registers as unlikely to me. If it was a planeswalker, it wasn't Tev Loneglade, considering he went off his rocker before the end. And when he did, he wasn't opposed (that we know of) by the actions of another Planeswalker, casting doubt on the idea that there was one there, especially given the nature of the Shard of Twelve Worlds, we should have seen the Chronicler if they were a 'walker and spared for that reason. You could say that the books might trace to Guff's library, but I think that's kind of a last resort. All in all this suggests the survival of Sarpadian culture that can be perused and appreciated by later generations.

2) Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII. The past lives in its pages, waiting to come again, but the tokens it creates are all the tokens of the "barbarian" factions that overthrew the Empires -- Goblins (over dwarves), Thrulls (over Ebon Hand), Camarids (Homarids over Merfolk), and Saprolings (Thallids over Elves). The white citizens are a little out but the Icatian internal crisis is human versus human, Citizens fit both sides. If the present of Sarpadia belongs to these factions, or the Thrulls in particular, why are they what's conjured through time, rather than the lost?

3) Icatian Crier. The rifts typically didn't displace objects in space very much, and the fact that she has appeared in the ruins of an Icatian Town suggest this is true: she's still on Sarpadia, in the Rift era. However, her news of war has not lost its relevance, suggesting that there are still people that the news can reach, to be warned of impending doom (different, unrelated war and doom) and not just an endless mass of hostile Thrulls. For her news to be relevant, there must be a recipient.

4) Combined with the first fact, the fact that the Thrulls suggested in the "Total thrull victory" theory didn't leave Sarpadia. The Thrulls were smart, if their marks could escape via boats, there's no reason to believe the Thrulls themselves couldn't devise sea travel. Especially with the Homarids (as per Homarid Shaman) providing rivalry to the land, the Thrulls have reason to mess with water. So if they didn't, that suggests they aren't an omindestructive swarm.

~~~

All in all, it seems that a culture with scholarly ability and an Icatian cultural heritage likely exists with access to the Sarpadian mainland in the Rift era.

However, we know the Empires fell. It would be somewhat disrespectful to FE to suggest otherwise. What, then, were there fates that brought us here

Dwarves: The dwarves do seem to be extinct, utterly exterminated by the Orcs & Goblins before the empires fully fell. Multiple flavor texts from FE itself attest or seem to attest the end of dwarvendom, with the records of the dwarves themselves being in mass graves and ruins, while they otherwise pass into myth and legend. The text on the Randy Asplund-Faith Dwarven Soldier is perhaps the most indicative: If there is a legend among present-day dwarves that the dwarves of Sarpadia will one day return, it suggests the dwarves of Sarpadia are gone as of the time of the legend. As a child I always had the crack theory that the blue dwarves from Apoclaypse who show up and save the day by applying lava to the Stronghold may have been the fulfillment of that legend, but I don't think the evidence actually bears that out.

Voldalians: The Voldalians buggered off; their fate is fairly well recorded with their late arrival in Etlan Shiis. As for the Homarids themselves, we know they're still around throughout Dominaria, but given their favored climate

Elves: The elves are the most uncertain. Their particular foe, the thallids, are only questionably sapient, but also had the numbers and force to push the elves over the brink and at least dissolve their empire. Did an elven population survive in a reduced state? There's no particular evidence of them being deliberately hunted down and finished off, but Havenwood is absolutely known to have been overrun, and it would, in my mind, be completely up to the interpretation of any later author whether or not a stable population survived anywhere. Homarid Shaman's flavor text suggests that some Havenwood elves at least lasted long enough to write sad records about the ruin of Havenwood (and not just to the Thallids, it seems)

Ebon Hand: Whether any Tourach-worship survived, the Ebon Hand as it was was crushed by the Thrull Rebellion. Honestly, it seems possible that the Thrulls may still maintain the faith of their creator-oppressors, though equally possible that they would ditch it.

Icatia: The Icatians are the group we have the best evidence of survival for, yet paradoxically it's arguably the most important that Icatia, as a civilization, crumbled. What then? Well, when the Roman Empire fell, it didn't mean every Roman citizen died, but a lot of them stopped being Romans because the empire didn't exist. And then for hundreds of years, successor states claimed the legacy of their great forebearer. I think that's probably the fate of Icatia. Ailis Connaut, the knighted scout, lived long enough to see children of her generation become adults before Icatia properly fell, and to her at least something of great value and beauty was lost in Icatia's final end. I would personally suggest, and feel that the evidence bears out, that Icatian successor states came from cities, colonies, and otherwise populations that became cut off from one another between the fall of centers like Trokair and the collapse of Icatia's central government and their capitol. Also to be considered is the internal strife: some of these settlements would violently reject others on the Farrelite divide, meaning that once a crisis of succession occurred, there wouldn't be a single claimant. That could easily prevent Icatia from re-forming as a nation once the collapse began, leading to scattered survivor groups that identify as Icatian, but can't really be said to be the nation of Icatia.

~~~

At this point, I speculate freely

~~~

The biggest question, if we are to reject the "Everything is thrulls" result, as I believe we have evidence to do, is "Why isn't everything thrulls?" But here is what I find to be the biggest likely controlling factor on the Thrulls: They are sapient. Everything suggests that the later generation of Thrulls, that organized and led the rebellion, are of at least human intelligence. They may even have forms specialized for intelligence. They can communicate and build their own society and culture, one that seems to be most strongly based on their own freedom and self-determination. So, would they necessarily come into conflict with the Icatian surviors? On one hand, the Icatians are humans, as were the Ebon Hand cultists. On the other hand, if the Thrulls have theological understanding, they could know that Icatian humans aren't followers of Tourach and the Ebon hand, or even that they (the thrulls) and the Icatians have a common enemy in the Ebon Hand. On the other side, Thrulls are creepy and frightening, an Icatian soldier's first instinct would probably be to stab the horrid thing, and that could well sour relations. But the Icatians are in no state to go thrull stabbing, as they have to worry about the Orc and Goblin raids one one side and dwindling resources on the other. The Orcs, on the other hand, are very strong, and looking for fresh meat. They absolutely would, I think, attack Thrull groups. And thallids. And basically anything else they can attack alongside Icatian survivors and the dwarves they wrapped up early. This makes the Orcs a main mutual war front.

I actually think this could be a novel and interesting direction: the thrulls are intelligent. Nothing is stopping them from being intellectual or even diplomatic. Creatures bred to die came to see the value in their own lives and threw off their murderous oppressors, is it too much of a stretch to think that they evolved empathy?

I would personally guess that the Thrulls became a preeminent power on Sarpadia, but not the universal hegemon. Containment against the Orcs would be hard fought, and the humans and any elven survivors would be struggling to survive against the climate more than they'd be able to make trouble for thrulls. The equilibrium state of Sarpadia's land is an advanced thrull society, a smattering of post-Icatian city states, and finally a breakdown of the Orcish forces running out of steam and/or turning on each other. The elves might or might not be dead, but the Thallids certainly survive given how they're found in later eras and certainly "control" what used to be Havenwood. Naturally, the strength of these forces can shift with the resources available, waning in the depths of the Ice Age and the Rift Era, waxing between the two and now. Especially if, like Otaria, Sarpadia was spared the worst of the Invasion, it could have rebuilt quite a bit at that time.

Nowadays, what remains? Probably a number of city-states rising out of the ashes of the Rift Era, all of which claim to be the inheritors of old Icatia's glory but none of which really have the force to unify humanity. Scattered elf populations, surviving hidden away. Creepy forests full of Thallid overgrowth. Starving orcs scratching their living from rocks and howling at rage from the mountains and the hollow, echoing halls of dwarves millennia dead. A Thrull society, fundamentally inhuman but possessing a core reasonable humanity, which may have gone through its own divisions in the intervening years as new minds write new values in new tablets and discover new ideologies and mutations. Waters where Homarids practice their inscrutable ways. Depending on just what a refined, modern-era thrull society looks like, this is a continent that (consistent with Fallen Empires) seems a harsher and less civilized place than the rest of Dominaria, sort of an alpine Sword-and-sandal theme, recalling Robert E. Howard's hyperborea. A place dominated by the ruins of what was and has no place to be again, but for itself very much alive.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:44 pm 
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I filled in my notes on all the remaining stories. There are still some that I'll have to think about some more and/or do some additional research in order to make a reasonable suggestion, but I added my notes with all the clues to their location anyway.


There is some additional information that I came across the other day when I looked up that other stuff about Otaria and the Numena and that I'll just drop here:

- A place called Dalrodrooma is mentioned as the place of origin of Sister Dormet’s rock dwarves (the context is mythological, but it might very well be a real place, Apocalypse, p. 168)
- The Eliterate colony lies “[a] hundred miles beyond the Urborg chain” in “a deep cleft in shallow seas” (Apocalypse, p. 266)
- King Ruhtra and his wife Queen Nagrom, the monarchs of Ulbion, have an audience with Akroma in Topos (Legions, first page of chapter 13)
--> Both are described as having black skin
--> There are other kings and queens among Akroma’s guests, too (Legions, early in chapter 14), as well as dukes and duchesses (Legions, final page of chapter 14)


I really like the embryonic Sarpadia discussion that we started here and would like to come back to it, but I'll probably make a separate thread for that one of these days.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:06 am 
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I've added some notes about the story "Familiar" in The Dragons of Magic (short version: a piece of info about white dragons in Planeshift makes me think it's probably set in New Argive).


I also realised while going throught Planeshift that it seems pretty likely that one of the Thran city states was in the same place as Penregon and later Argivia. The monastery that was built over Treva’s prison “was leveled and rebuilt in the time of the Thran. That library was destroyed in the cataclysm of Yawgmoth” (Planeshift, p. 172). If it was destroyed by Yawgmoth’s attacks at the time of the Thran, it was almost certainly in one of the eight city states.

Ethan, if you are still lurking and willing to share the information, did you try and track where some of the Thran city states were in relation to each other (as far as that's even mentioned)? We know that Halcyon used to be above the Caves of Koilos, obviously, but was there any particular reason you picked Nyoron specifically when you were looking for a Thran city that could be under the ruins of Kroog when you wrote the section on Yavimaya for the artbook?


A place called Dalrodrooma is mentioned as the place of origin of Sister Dormet’s rock dwarves (the context is mythological, but it might very well be a real place, Apocalypse, p. 168)
For what it's worth, it's probably safe to assume the rock dwarves are from a place somewhere on the Burning Isles, both because of their rock/lava focus and because they suddenly show up in Urborg. That could mean Dalrodrooma is a place on one of those isles, or perhaps even the name of an entire island there.


Edit: I've also added "Journey Home" from The Secrets of Magic. I'm fairly confident that New Argive is the most plausible option for this one, even if there doesn't seem to be much to work with at first glance. And yes, I did keep track of when Urza's staff is last mentioned in the Invasion trilogy :wizard: I guess both this one and "Familiar" are fairly inconsequential to the geography as a whole, but I mostly tackled them for fun and perfectionism.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:16 pm 
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I also realised while going throught Planeshift that it seems pretty likely that one of the Thran city states was in the same place as Penregon and later Argivia. The monastery that was built over Treva’s prison “was leveled and rebuilt in the time of the Thran. That library was destroyed in the cataclysm of Yawgmoth” (Planeshift, p. 172). If it was destroyed by Yawgmoth’s attacks at the time of the Thran, it was almost certainly in one of the eight city states.

Ethan, if you are still lurking and willing to share the information, did you try and track where some of the Thran city states were in relation to each other (as far as that's even mentioned)? We know that Halcyon used to be above the Caves of Koilos, obviously, but was there any particular reason you picked Nyoron specifically when you were looking for a Thran city that could be under the ruins of Kroog when you wrote the section on Yavimaya for the artbook?


Halcyon was the only city that I knew exactly where it was. There was enough description to infer locations for Phoenon, Orleason and Losanon. Seaton, Wington, Chignon, and Nyoron didn't really have much information to go on. IIRC, I assigned Nyoron to the same location as Kroog pretty arbitrarily.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:59 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
Halcyon was the only city that I knew exactly where it was. There was enough description to infer locations for Phoenon, Orleason and Losanon. Seaton, Wington, Chignon, and Nyoron didn't really have much information to go on. IIRC, I assigned Nyoron to the same location as Kroog pretty arbitrarily.
Cool, thanks for replying! Can't wait to learn more about this in The Art of Dominaria Vol. II: All that other stuff about Dominaria that we didn't cover in the first book ;)

I'm still pondering that small handful of stories that I haven't been able to properly narrow down yet, but they are weirdly specific and completely vague at the same time. Which is a shame because some of them have lots of named locations that sound like they should be at least a somewhat big deal in the surrounding area (mostly "Goblin King" and "Like Spider's Silk" in The Secrets of Magic). I guess I could always wait for the next Magic Story Podcast and ask you a troll question along the lines of "Where exactly do the following stories take place: ..." :V

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:41 pm 
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The thread necromany continues!

1.) I'm fully aware I'm the only person in the world who cares about Dominaria's constellations, but I realised something about my earlier findings the other day, and I felt compelled by perfectionism and intellectual honesty to mention that little snag, just in case anyone ever wants to use my notes for anything important. It's probably not even a big deal in the grander scheme of things, but you be the judge. Basically, one of the reasons that has been given for Dominaria's Ice Age is that the Sylex Blast tilted the planetary axis, presumably in a way that moved Terisiare further north, and if that's the case, it's probably safe to assume that the World Spell tilted it back again. I'm not entirely sure if there is an original source for this other than a forum post by Pete Venters, but for what it's worth, it has been picked up by Ethan and Kelly's Magic Story Podcast: https://media.wizards.com/2018/podcasts ... n64y4k.mp3

The podcast treats it more like speculation or a mere theory rather than hard canon. I just wanted to point out that, if the planetry axis was indeed different between the Sylex Blast and the World Spell from what it is today, that would mean that the descriptions of the night sky we get in sources like And Peace Shall Sleep and Dark Legacy would have to be slightly adjusted in some cases, at least the stuff that's close to the horizon. Yes, I'm a nerd.

Of course, the axial tilt would also have moved Sarpadia further north and closer to the equator, so you'd think it should have got warmer there instead of colder (unless you want to be really convoluted about it and somehow invoke elaborate changes in oceanic currents or whatever), so I guess the whole thing doesn't make a ton of sense to begin with. You can check the 3D model of the Dominarian globe to see exactly what I mean: https://www.maptoglobe.com/r1jkfxnnf


2.) I also remembered the confusion that arose when Ethan answered my geography question concerning obscure locations, when it turned out that Scathe was actually mentioned in Whispering Woods (pp. 126-127) and treated like it might be a location after all ("'Gods of Urza!' squeaked Lily. 'Zombies of Scathe!' The woodcutter had no time to wonder where a dancing girl had learned of zombies and whence they came, if Scathe was a place."). I'll just be cheeky and add it to the list of locations in the OP. Who knows, maybe it's an infamous ghost town full of zombies somewhere in Wrenna or Muronia or what have you. The Rundvelt Range wasn't on Pete Venters original map of Aerona either, so I wouldn't rule it out.


3.) I went through The Prodigal Sorcerer looking for information about something else, when I came across a couple of geographical references:

- There is a place called Cresino that is (or was?) presumably a city in (southern?) Suderbod ("Even when I [Ursal Daleel] was a small child far south in Cresino", p. 76)
- “the western sea” is mentioned (p. 231), which is odd, considering the wiki lists a Western Sea between Corondor and the Burning Isles (I'm not sure from the top of my head where that's mentioned and they don't give a source, but I guess I'll take their word for it this time). Then again, it's not capitalised in the book, and that might just be their way of referring to to the Great Ocean west of Otaria. Or maybe they are specifically talking about that smaller stretch of ocean between Shiv and northern Otaria. There are technically two South Seas on Dominaria, too, so that might well be the case (one south of Jamuraa and one south of Almaaz).
- To add a little bit to the discussion about Acapiston and Acapistan (see also: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=26237), it seems that Acapiston is only mentioned once (“from the wastes above Skollten to the deserts of Acapiston”, p. 170), while Acapistan is mentioned several times:

"he tried to lift some jewelry from an Acapistani" (p. 112)

“the jungles of Acapistan, where he had been told that summer lasted all year” are farther south than Suderbod (p. 131)

“the vast forces of lands like Suderbod and Acapistan” (p. 203)

I can't 100% guarantee that I spotted every reference of those names, but I think this makes it much more likely that Acapistan is indeed the name of the country, while Acapiston could be its capital that's located somehwere in a desert. What's really interesting (and potentially tricky) is the part about the jungles, and the fact that they are described as being farther south than Suderbod... Ethan actually leaned towards putting it in the south of Otaria near the equator, which really starts making a lot of sense when you consider there is a big forest there on the map of Otaria. I have no idea whether that's being used for anything in the Otaria novels, though, or more precisely, which of the forests on the map of Otaria is supposed to be Wirewood. But I guess we're looking at a country called Acapistan that has (or had) jungles but also a desert where a city named Acapiston is presumably located, and at least the jungles specifically are farther to the south than Suderbod.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:04 am 
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IIRC, the axial tilt thing was one of several different explanations for the Ice Age, so we treated it as possibly correct but possibly incorrect.

The southernmost forest is Wirewood, and the one east of the Pardic Mountains is the Acapistan jungle (and the desert to the south of it is the Acapistan desert).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:39 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
IIRC, the axial tilt thing was one of several different explanations for the Ice Age, so we treated it as possibly correct but possibly incorrect.
That's pretty much the impression I got, yeah. There's probably nothing to be gained from nailing down a clear canonical explanation for the Ice Age anyway. Firstly because it was probably due to several factors and very likely had a strong supernatural component to it, and secondly because looking at it from a real-world geological/climatological/whatever perspective would open a big can of worms (bigger, I think, than fantasy worldbuilding could deal with).

The axial tilt just gave me a bit of an "oh crap" moment when I suddenly realised that it might affect some of the information I've compiled, so I thought I'd mention it just in case.

WotC_Ethan wrote:
The southernmost forest is Wirewood, and the one east of the Pardic Mountains is the Acapistan jungle (and the desert to the south of it is the Acapistan desert).
Ok, thanks! I'd say that sounds pretty legit.

Speaking of obscure locations in Otaria, I love the namedrop of Skollten in the blurb you wrote for Kangee, Sky Warden. It's awesome to see the Prodigal Sorcerer parts of the continent acknowledged somewhere. Kangee hanging out in Skollten would also explain why we never heard of him in any of the Otaria stories. Here's hoping we'll see the old bird again when we revisit Otaria. Old school Dominaria was just lousy with long-lived wizards after all.

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