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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:44 am 
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(sexual dimorphism has nothing to do with reproduction but with general appearance; for example, dwarfs in the Discworld show little to no dimorphism so women look exactly like men - and their culture doubles down on the fact - but still reproduce "the old fashioned way" :D)

But yeah, I agree it's kinda weird there are no female giants on the cards. I get that they already did more concepting for Kaldheim's art than they ususally do for new planes with one set, but you'd think painting a giant with a female body shape and no beard shouldn't be that much extra work.

Yup, and there's always some interest for it too, innocent or otherwise. Bit of a wasted occasion. That reminds me, though, how many giantesses were around in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor? Can't remember many at the top of my head.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:02 pm 
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So, what do we make of the fact that 'Phyrexian' is a creature type now?

I've always been against using it as a creature type when it came up in the past. I've kinda softened in that I can at least buy that it makes some degree of sense to group all Phyrexians together as their own type, but only if they errata all previous cards that should logically have it. I don't think WotC has made a statement about that so far, have they? Do you think it's worth making a separate thread about it and try to compile all cards that should have the Phyrexian type added?

The thing that bothers me the most about it is that it feels like something they should have introduced when Urza's Saga came out, or in Invasion at the latest (hence my insistence on errata). Going that route in 2021 feels textbook anticlimactic. And sure, I love Phyrexia and can see the appeal of playing Phyrexian tribal, but I'm glad they got a more clever mechanical identity in Scars block. I really loved the Phyrexian mechanics there.



If we go with with the theory the next few sets/planes will have hints to a Phyrexia invading (which I'm believing), I think the type was made in part so that the non-hardcore vorthos know whats going on. Phyrexia was 11/10 years ago and the average person mtg player lifespan is ~5-7 years so most players now likely didn't play New Phyrexia and likely don't know Vorinclex per say but has likely heard of Phyrexia. Lore-wise I'm gonna guess they are never gonna out right its Phyrexia/Vorinclex on Kaldheim and in a reverse vorthis twist it is from cards us the audience knows fully whats going on. I'm thinking the the next few sets we will see a few one or two phyrexian creatures popping up showing they have found a way (likely Tezzeret) to travel between planes and the creature type will be the signals for this.

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One negative side effect that it's going to have is that it imposes a limit on the number of Phyrexians we are going to see in any given set, which means we probably won't get a full return to New Phyrexia.


I don't see why, in fact I think thats where the pay offs for any tribal stuff will likely be.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:49 pm 
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(sexual dimorphism has nothing to do with reproduction but with general appearance; for example, dwarfs in the Discworld show little to no dimorphism so women look exactly like men - and their culture doubles down on the fact - but still reproduce "the old fashioned way" :D)
Ah, yeah, gotcha, that's true. Yeah, maybe the giants on Kaldheim are so Metal that even the women have beards. I'd be cool with that :V

But yeah, I agree it's kinda weird there are no female giants on the cards. I get that they already did more concepting for Kaldheim's art than they ususally do for new planes with one set, but you'd think painting a giant with a female body shape and no beard shouldn't be that much extra work.

Yup, and there's always some interest for it too, innocent or otherwise. Bit of a wasted occasion. That reminds me, though, how many giantesses were around in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor? Can't remember many at the top of my head.
Yeah, a friend from my playgroup has a wife who also plays Magic every now and then, and she loves her Kalemne Commander deck (granted, it's probably not just because Kalemne is female, but I guess it doesn't hurt). Lorwyn/Shadowmoor has Boldwyr Heavyweights and Rosheen Meanderer, but that's it.

Edit:

If we go with with the theory the next few sets/planes will have hints to a Phyrexia invading (which I'm believing), I think the type was made in part so that the non-hardcore vorthos know whats going on. Phyrexia was 11/10 years ago and the average person mtg player lifespan is ~5-7 years so most players now likely didn't play New Phyrexia and likely don't know Vorinclex per say but has likely heard of Phyrexia. Lore-wise I'm gonna guess they are never gonna out right its Phyrexia/Vorinclex on Kaldheim and in a reverse vorthis twist it is from cards us the audience knows fully whats going on. I'm thinking the the next few sets we will see a few one or two phyrexian creatures popping up showing they have found a way (likely Tezzeret) to travel between planes and the creature type will be the signals for this.
I agree that's probably what's going on, but the new Vorinclex already got the Phyrexian watermark (which is great), and I think as soon as you take the next step and actually introduce Phyrexian as a creature type, you should follow it through and not treat it like a one-off thing. If they aren't prepared to do that, they should have just left it at the watermark and maybe changed the name to 'Vorinclex, Phyrexian Raider' or something, and the message would have been clear enough. Given that the Phyrexian type exists now, not giving it to all the older Phyrexian cards basically erases their Phyrexian-ness, and if I'm going to play Phyrexian tribal, what kind of joke would it be if I couldn't get the most out of Tsabo Tavoc, Phyrexian Crusader, Phyrexian Rager and all the others?

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One negative side effect that it's going to have is that it imposes a limit on the number of Phyrexians we are going to see in any given set, which means we probably won't get a full return to New Phyrexia.


I don't see why, in fact I think thats where the pay offs for any tribal stuff will likely be.
Because I somehow don't see Wizards making a set about a plane on which 90% of all creatures share a creature type, and then go ahead and start giving tribal support to that type. Not even Humans ever get that kind of exposure in any set, and they are probably the most common creature type.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:19 pm 
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New Phyrexia wasn't all phyrexians, I don't see why whatever the next Mirrodin set is would have to be. Even if phyrexians outnumber the mirrans 9:1 in lore, they don't have to be 90% of the cards.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:13 pm 
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Re: LorMoor giants
There was also Cloudgoat Ranger, Hillcomber Giant, and quite likely Fuedkiller's Verdict.

From other locations, we have Skyraker Giant, Bulwark Giant, Towering Titan, Sentinel of the Eternal Watch, and Palisade Giant.
And possibly Jotunn Owl Keeper, but that one is hard to tell.

There's a decent showing off large women out there.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:20 am 
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I agree that's probably what's going on, but the new Vorinclex already got the Phyrexian watermark (which is great), and I think as soon as you take the next step and actually introduce Phyrexian as a creature type, you should follow it through and not treat it like a one-off thing. If they aren't prepared to do that, they should have just left it at the watermark and maybe changed the name to 'Vorinclex, Phyrexian Raider' or something, and the message would have been clear enough. Given that the Phyrexian type exists now, not giving it to all the older Phyrexian cards basically erases their Phyrexian-ness, and if I'm going to play Phyrexian tribal, what kind of joke would it be if I couldn't get the most out of Tsabo Tavoc, Phyrexian Crusader, Phyrexian Rager and all the others?


Oh I do think there will be an oracle update, how far back they will go still unknown or if they decide only certain creatures will get the type (maybe only the phyrexia creatures that only had "jobs" will get it similar to deciding that Nobel type will mostly be given to creatures who don't already have a "class/job") though i do think they have the legends and cards with phyrexia in the name get it.

Quote:
One negative side effect that it's going to have is that it imposes a limit on the number of Phyrexians we are going to see in any given set, which means we probably won't get a full return to New Phyrexia.


I don't see why, in fact I think thats where the pay offs for any tribal stuff will likely be.
Because I somehow don't see Wizards making a set about a plane on which 90% of all creatures share a creature type, and then go ahead and start giving tribal support to that type. Not even Humans ever get that kind of exposure in any set, and they are probably the most common creature type.[/quote]

As Cato said not all the creatures need be phyrexians.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:38 am 
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I feel like if we need to go to NPH the "Phyrexian" type would be restricted to the 'ranking' Phyrexians -- the likes of which previously got no racial type, or "Horror". Gremlins would just be gremlin, not Phyrexian Gremlin (except maybe Phyrexian Gremlins). Compleated elves and goblins would be elves and goblins. but Priests of Norn would be Phyrexian and so on.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:43 am 
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I do hope everything gets errata'd to phyrexian but I'm content with the most compleated ones, like all of the praetors and splicers

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:28 am 
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Wait, weren't the golem-making splicers Mirran? I'd be for the errata-ing of horrors too, tbh, those with anatomy so alien that they're more Phyrexian than anything they may have ever been.

Edit: nope, splicers even have the phi watermark, my bad. Was tricked by the golems, which I assumed tended to be more Mirran than Phyrexian.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:27 am 
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Well all the splicers have the Orthodoxy's Hellraiser + porcelain look so you have no excuse.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:47 am 
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Wait, weren't the golem-making splicers Mirran? I'd be for the errata-ing of horrors too, tbh, those with anatomy so alien that they're more Phyrexian than anything they may have ever been.

Edit: nope, splicers even have the phi watermark, my bad. Was tricked by the golems, which I assumed tended to be more Mirran than Phyrexian.


If it helps they did have new art for the golem tokens in new phyrexia to show how corrupted the plane was (they also did the same for the Myr).


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:55 am 
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Well all the splicers have the Orthodoxy's Hellraiser + porcelain look so you have no excuse.

Hey, the last time I took a close look at a splicer was probably around the New Phyrexia release! You have a point, though.

If it helps they did have new art for the golem tokens in new phyrexia to show how corrupted the plane was (they also did the same for the Myr).

Ah, yes, now I remember! I recently rabbit-holed into Pauper artifact combo and I (erroneously) remembered Golem Foundry as the iconic golem-maker, but there were those kinda-organic tokens as well. Gog, I love artifacts, and Phyrexia made quite a few very interesting ones.

(I am going severely off topic tho)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:25 pm 
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"Phyrexian" should be reserved for all-orignal PHyrexian creations. And maybe high ranking PHyrexian compleated works.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:57 pm 
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Leaving that Phyrexian discussion aside for a moment, I just wanted to add that I really appreciate the wiggle-room and the open-endedness that are baked into the ten realms of Kaldheim. I think actually fleshing out the ten realms the way they did and really showing all of them in Kaldheim was necessary to give the setting enough depth and make me want to revisit it in the first place, but knowing that there are probably more than ten realms - as well as some "lost" ones - makes the prospect of returning there even more compelling. It also makes me optimistic that the worldbuilding team deliberately left things vague enough to include new elements on that return while still feeling consistent. A big bummer with Theros Beyond Death was that the way they handled the plane's cosmology felt completely inconsistent with what we'd been told about it originally, e.g. the way the Underworld works or the fact that a forgotten :r::g: goddess of love that existed before Xenagos had been established, and then Creative claimed only one god of each colour-combination could exist at any given time and Klothys had been stuck in the Underworld all along. Not to mention the fact that Calix exists... :shudder:

Even some of the realms of Kaldheim that we do know have a lot of ancient history that's only hinted at, e.g. Gnottvold, Karfell and Immersturm (at least when you consider Ethan's explanation for why it's no longer Valla), and I think there's a lot left to explore. There are even some things in the present day that weren't included because they didn't fit the colour combination of the realm in question, e.g. the barbarians of Skybreen on Karfell.

That said, Kaldheim really makes me long for the good old pre-Mending days when planeswalkers were Magic's gods. I've gone on record saying that the planeswalkers we got in this set as well as the gods are the weakest parts of the world and the set in my opinion, and that really makes me wonder what role Oldwalkers played on Kaldheim back in the day. I've always said I was going to riot if we visited a Norse plane that didn't worship Fiers and Freyalise, even if they were no longer around (and that it would be a great way to somehow provide an explanation for Freyalise's eye-patch). I like to think that that might have been the case on Kaldheim after all. We know that the current pantheon has been in charge for "centuries", and that the elves used to be Kaldheim's gods before that, but that still leaves a big enough window for Freyalise and other planeswalkers from the Shard to have visited Kaldheim after the Worldspell. Maybe there really was a pantheon of Oldwalkers in charge for a while, before they fell to infighting, or were tricked by the local gods, or something along those lines. I'd love to see an interaction like that.

(I haven't read the final Kaldheim story about that Elf Commander yet, though, here's hoping that one won't shoot down my wishful thinking...)

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