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Kaldheim story
https://nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=26862
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Author:  Heliosphoros [ Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Kaldheim story

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2021-01-07

We start off pretty great. I do love when gods and The Thing are in the same story.

Love how Alrund was just so disgusted at Vorinclex he had to drop his disguise.

Author:  neru [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

That was a great start.

I also think if Vorinclex gets killed off, he is the best praetor to die because of his role as more of a figurehead praetor and because the Vicious Swarm is described as the faction with the least allegiance to any one leader. The worldbuilding article for them said they don't even respect Yawgmoth since he was defeated. If Vorinclex dies, the green Phyrexians won't even pause before eating his corpse and seeing who is the biggest now.

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Plus, if we lose Vorinclex that leaves Glissa as a pushed green phyrexian character

Author:  Barinellos [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Plus, if we lose Vorinclex that leaves Glissa as a pushed green phyrexian character

Don't forget Ezuri is perched on that wall as well

Author:  Heliosphoros [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2021-01-08

Overall it was quite a nice story with a sweet ending.

- Apparently Kaldheim has no sun or moon, just Starnheim.

- Valkyries can be male.

Author:  Barinellos [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

I'm feeling fairly ambivalent that the first time they seemingly want to give us what we've been asking for is the first time it's totally inappropriate to actually do so.

Valkyries weren't angels, sure, but they were explicitly maidens. So they gave us male angels in the one place they don't fit. :/

Author:  Heliosphoros [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Its also kind of weird considering none of the valkyries seen so far seem to be masculine, except maybe Hailstorm Valkyrie. Still, we got male sirens and male nymphs (and female satyrs and whatnot) so I suppose there is precedent.

Author:  Barinellos [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

In fairness, I really despise the male nymphs.
The sirens and satyrs are at least presented as biological creatures, so having them in either sex feels less contentious. (Of course then that raises questions over Gorgons though)
One could argue about creation and form, but that doesn't stop me from hatng the male nymphs and I guess the guy valkyries.

However, as said, I really hate to have to take that position because I'm a big proponent in male angels making a reappearance. Just... Totally not the place for it.

Author:  Heliosphoros [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Personally I think gendered angels and demons don't make much sense to begin with since they're contructs of mana. You can explain some of these as mages being pathetic incels, but most angels are naturally born so they should either be genderless or randomized.

I hope they at least follow this philosophy on other planes. We have female demons in Innistrad after all.

Author:  Barinellos [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

How about we avoid using insulting language like that, mm?

Also, angels aren't naturally born. They manifest, but I'm not really arguing against their Mana nature. Considering what we know of their coalescence it might have to do with the belief involved giving them shape

Author:  neru [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

It feels like there's a lot of hullaballoo around Niko but we also metaknow this is in the sidestory line and not an episodes of the main story.

It's fitting for two mythological worlds but it's appropriate for Niko to escape one world with prophecies and fates to another world with prophecies and fates.

Author:  Heliosphoros [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Barinellos wrote:
How about we avoid using insulting language like that, mm?

Also, angels aren't naturally born. They manifest, but I'm not really arguing against their Mana nature. Considering what we know of their coalescence it might have to do with the belief involved giving them shape


Of course, I should have put brackets considering that they're like His Dark Materials angels, except mana instead of Dust. What I mean is that non-artificial concentrations don't have any particular reason to fit into [one specific] gender standards.

@neru: Indeed. Niko's whole story seems to be about rebelling against the forces of destiny and proving themselves as forging their own path, which is pretty . And unlike on Theros, they might have a chance, as the whole fatalistic aspect of Norse myth seems to be about to be subverted.

Author:  Tevish Szat [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Yeah, Valkyries seems like the worst place to introduce male angels as a "thing". Well, maybe not 'worst' per say, but really kind of baffling. Like this is the one time "Angels are all female" SHOULD have been held to because that's part of the point, so even though getting male angels in the multiverse is probably a good thing in general... here? Really?

It's like going to McDonalds and spontaneously getting sushi instead of anything on the McDonalds menu. I like sushi. All other things being equal, I'd take sushi over McD's... but when I've gone there I want my artery-clogging burger that I ordered, so cold fish on seasoned rice is going to be a disappointment.

Author:  TPmanW [ Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Barinellos wrote:
I'm feeling fairly ambivalent that the first time they seemingly want to give us what we've been asking for is the first time it's totally inappropriate to actually do so.

Valkyries weren't angels, sure, but they were explicitly maidens. So they gave us male angels in the one place they don't fit. :/

Eh, we could have gotten male angels on a plane where they only exist to do the corruptions of a powerful force of evil. So, really Kaldheim is only the 2nd worst place we could have gotten male angels.

Author:  Barinellos [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

The biggest flaw in fiction when it comes to evil powers is how they wantonly flout the illusion they created once they feel they no longer need it. It's like optics matter right up until they're bored of it, no matter how disastrous the consequences are afterwards. The entire affair was only even evil from the planar perspective because he dropped the charade. Otherwise the system was "morally just" from the population's perspective.

Bolas had literally no reason to unleash the eternals on the Amonkhet population. It's actually ridiculously out of character for him. He thrives to be worshipped. Madara was a prized jewel for him to rule, why would he throw all of that away on Amonkhet? One might argue it was for the production of the God Eternals, but... Well that's just a stupid waste of resources for the sake of spectacle. Lure the gods away, murder them one by one in secret.

(It's also a reason I'm perpetually irritated at emperor Palpatine. Had the right optics and total control of the system and goes insane, turning public opinion against him. Doesn't make sense...)

Author:  Aaarrrgh [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

I don't think it's that big of a deal. After all, Kaldheim is not Scandinavia, just as Theros isn't Greece. The big thing to consider here to me is why the mythological valkyries were all female. I'm no expert (although I am Scandinavian, so that might be worth something), but my understanding is that their gender was most likely due to the gender roles in viking society, which do not exist in Kaldheim. Basically, the valkyries were women because (generally) only men were warriors (this is of course overly simplified, and implies a different status dynamic than what actually existed, but I think it's close enough to the truth for the argument to be valid. Again, I'm not an expert). On Kaldheim, women can be warriors, so it seems fitting that valkyries can be male.

Author:  Heliosphoros [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Barinellos wrote:
The biggest flaw in fiction when it comes to evil powers is how they wantonly flout the illusion they created once they feel they no longer need it. It's like optics matter right up until they're bored of it, no matter how disastrous the consequences are afterwards. The entire affair was only even evil from the planar perspective because he dropped the charade. Otherwise the system was "morally just" from the population's perspective.

Bolas had literally no reason to unleash the eternals on the Amonkhet population. It's actually ridiculously out of character for him. He thrives to be worshipped. Madara was a prized jewel for him to rule, why would he throw all of that away on Amonkhet? One might argue it was for the production of the God Eternals, but... Well that's just a stupid waste of resources for the sake of spectacle. Lure the gods away, murder them one by one in secret.

(It's also a reason I'm perpetually irritated at emperor Palpatine. Had the right optics and total control of the system and goes insane, turning public opinion against him. Doesn't make sense...)


From Emperor's Fist:

"I was old before this world was even born. I watched my brothers rule for a thousand years until little worms like you overcame them. But I am not my brothers. I am older than they are, greater. I have devoured stars and shattered worlds. I have sired whole races, populated entire planes, and then hunted them to extinction for my amusement."

At heart, Bolas is just a nasty kid. He commit genocide for fun the same way we burn ants.


Aaarrrgh wrote:
I don't think it's that big of a deal. After all, Kaldheim is not Scandinavia, just as Theros isn't Greece. The big thing to consider here to me is why the mythological valkyries were all female. I'm no expert (although I am Scandinavian, so that might be worth something), but my understanding is that their gender was most likely due to the gender roles in viking society, which do not exist in Kaldheim. Basically, the valkyries were women because (generally) only men were warriors (this is of course overly simplified, and implies a different status dynamic than what actually existed, but I think it's close enough to the truth for the argument to be valid. Again, I'm not an expert). On Kaldheim, women can be warriors, so it seems fitting that valkyries can be male.


Actually shield maidens are known. Generally, socities living in harsh conditions tend to be egalitarian if for no other reason than because there's not enough hands on deck.

As to why they're female, probably a strictly religious thing. The sun is female in Norse mythology and women in the sagas are compared to the sun for being so fair and beautful. Maybe its the same idea, just a bunch of suns coming to get you.

Author:  Aaarrrgh [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Did some quick research, and while viking culture was more egalitarian that some might assume, there is definitely litterature which implies that the characterization of valkyries as women was at least partially for sexist reasons. Remember that the valkyries aren't even always warriors themselves, but rather they only enter the battlefield to choose the warriors who are worthy of entering Valhalla, where the valkyries are then basically servant girls (and implied in at least one poem, escorts).

Of course, as with any folk mythology, we have to remember that there is no established canon. Each tribe and village adapted the myths to fit their own needs, and a lot of it wasn't even written down until long after Christianity had mostly erased the original oral tradition, so both interpretations can be valid.

Author:  Cato [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

The printing of male angels is an elaborate plot to lure Moppi back to the AF&S forums.

Author:  Barinellos [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kaldheim story

Cato wrote:
The printing of male angels is an elaborate plot to lure Moppi back to the AF&S forums.

Pft, that's trying too hard. All they need to do is put Garruk under a waterfall in a borderless card.

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