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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:54 pm 
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I finally started Pokemon snap, speaking of video games.
That comes at the expense of not giving any further into monster hunter rise, but since another update is just in a couple weeks, I might as well wait.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:00 pm 
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From what info I can find: The AI Dungeon group doesn’t own the AI the “game” uses; and they are being forced to comply with certain mandatory censorship to be allowed to continue to use it.

Their communication comes across as ****; but it also comes across as if they are in over their heads and their lawyers have now told them to stfu. The entire thing seems to be a cautionary tale tbh.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:21 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
I finally started Pokemon snap, speaking of video games.
That comes at the expense of not giving any further into monster hunter rise, but since another update is just in a couple weeks, I might as well wait.

I have been mostly playing Monster Hunter Rise, partly because I've finally found that rhythm that always takes several dozen hours to find for a new Monster Hunter, and partly because it's what my friends are playing (so I feel the compulsive need to tackle the single-player content myself to not feel like I'm being pushed too far out of my depth). I am increasingly frustrated by having been convinced to buy in so early in its lifespan; besides simply not being a finished game yet, it's difficult to find all the proper tutorials and info on the web, like I used to with every other game in the series. I'm super glad that it's no longer a "wiki game" (because all the monster weaknesses etc. are accessible in-game), but there's still a lot of things I simply cannot find because the info isn't out there yet.

That, and Capcom actively carving out content for monetezation. I'm keeping my mouth shut about it for the most part because the friends I play with are the kinds of games-corporation-apologists that don't want to hear that cynical talk, but I considered dropping it for a bit when I found out.

mjack33 wrote:
From what info I can find: The AI Dungeon group doesn’t own the AI the “game” uses; and they are being forced to comply with certain mandatory censorship to be allowed to continue to use it.

Their communication comes across as ****; but it also comes across as if they are in over their heads and their lawyers have now told them to stfu. The entire thing seems to be a cautionary tale tbh.


more ranting about AID


And I do want to take a moment to thank you all for letting me rant about this as I have been. It's been stressful all around, and it's nice to get things off my chest now and then.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:40 pm 
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I have been mostly playing Monster Hunter Rise, partly because I've finally found that rhythm that always takes several dozen hours to find for a new Monster Hunter, and partly because it's what my friends are playing (so I feel the compulsive need to tackle the single-player content myself to not feel like I'm being pushed too far out of my depth). I am increasingly frustrated by having been convinced to buy in so early in its lifespan; besides simply not being a finished game yet, it's difficult to find all the proper tutorials and info on the web, like I used to with every other game in the series. I'm super glad that it's no longer a "wiki game" (because all the monster weaknesses etc. are accessible in-game), but there's still a lot of things I simply cannot find because the info isn't out there yet.

That, and Capcom actively carving out content for monetezation. I'm keeping my mouth shut about it for the most part because the friends I play with are the kinds of games-corporation-apologists that don't want to hear that cynical talk, but I considered dropping it for a bit when I found out.

I'm willing to forgive them for releasing the game as is for two reasons. The first is the MASSIVE disruption to their development cycle what with the pandemic, but also because of the huge data breach from last year too. Of course, it's not ideal that the game was released without it's totality, but they're actively correcting that for free.

As to Capcom's wider monetization issues... I honestly don't give a rats ass if the monster hunter team need to charge for cosmetics considering they release huge content updates for free. One doesn't effect the game, regardless of it could have been included at launch, the other is free and is actually the core gameplay.

If you're taking about another division of Capcom, I be absolutely won't defend them, but the individual studios shouldn't be held responsible for anything that happens outside their control.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 pm 
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From what I can tell, OpenAI has a type of filtering/censorship they require most of their customers to use; and for whatever reason AI Dungeon was not. The reason for this filter/censorship was known issues with the software that AI Dungeon seems to have encountered.... so now they are being forced to police their content similar to other customers using the same software.

Essentially, the ai generation in question was known to create problematic content; and AI Dungeon provided semi-unrestricted access to the problematic parts of the generation. The game company seems to have not fully understood the risks/situation they were getting into; while the ai company had a big breakdown somewhere that allowed commercial use of the software without certain restrictions. So the algorithm got used on a scale it probably shouldn’t have been uncensored; and both companies seem to have had an “Oh ****!” banana split with lawyers and a cherry on top.

The AI Dungeon company is probably trying to prevent their game from getting shut down completely. I think they may have gone too far; but some level of censorship seems inevitable given the situation; and I don’t think the community would have been happy with any result. I think they made some **** decisions in a state of panic and now have the legal department running the comms until the disaster is “mitigated”; so it seems like an unfortunate situation where they made some bad decisions and now have no good options. Thus I’m inclined to feel a wee bit of sympathy for the game company; although the responsible thing would have been to thoroughly test for this kind of **** before making it a public ip.

That being said, you then throw in stuff like the hack and other things and it really just seems like they’ve been treading water in a shark tank for a while now. Something stupid was bound to happen.

Edit: I definitely think the community should still be pissed tho.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:12 am 
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So what exactly is AI dngeon? Some kind of storytelling game or RPG data... organizer?

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:08 am 
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If I understood correctly: The OpenAI ai is a piece of software where you put in text and an AI tries to provide you with follow up text that makes sense. This is done via a machine learning algorithm. The problem being the AI doesn’t understand human morality or even tact/propriety. AI Dungeon is a game that was made using it.

Stealing a joke: The “problem” with the game is that there are technically two ways to mount a dragon; and the AI doesn’t necessarily understand which one you want.

The above leads to some bad places given the proper input text.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:03 pm 
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So then, a good part of the problematic content could just be people having a laugh at what the AI comes up with? That makes it seem like much less of a problem.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 10:20 pm 
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The biggest/main problem is that it made explicit content about underage individuals. This is the big thing that triggered the “crisis”; and it’s the main thing that both companies involved went on the figurative warpath over. You can’t have commercial software doing that.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:02 am 
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So, let me see if I follow this debacle. Open AI created software that's like a chatbot, it tries to follow up sensibly the text it's given and is a learning program.

Then, AI dungeon used this framework to create a site where this unthinking machine would, essentially, function as something of a "GM" for a fantasy game.

Now, because, to steal a joke, D&D is sometimes less about legendary heroes saving the world and more about bisexual kleptomaniacs working through their issues with reckless abandon and great violence, some kind of naughty concepts get in the AI. And of course, this is a modern AI. It doesn't think. It doesn't know to not apply X to Y. So, sooner or later, it coughs up some explicit content featuring at least one character who is not of majority.

Now, setting aside whether or not this should be immediately slapped down, it's fairly logical and expected that when some admin finds out it will be, as something like that would be questionably legal and certainly unmarketable. So AI dungeon blames OpenAI, OpenAI blames AI Dungeon (since, you know, neither of them wants to pay for it) and the whole powder keg is set off, before or after the blame starts, by somebody airing the dirty laundry, along with a lot of other dirties from AI Dungeon that are in the more technical spectrum.

And then, somewhere in their brains, the AI Dungeon crew has a short circuit that jumps us from "Yeah I get this chain of events" to "It hurt itself in its confusion" as they don't just, you know, try to tame their AI maybe update the Terms and Conditions, they went full Orwell with total surveillance of things that were supposed to be private and the screeching defense that anyone who doesn't like it must be an evil Pedo, essentially doubling down on what might as well be scorched earth because you've got a program that does fantasy story stuff in solo private yet provides outside creativity and the demographic you REALLY just pissed off wasn't pedophiles so much as asocial nerds (which is to say the exact core of people who would be interested in this thing) and nobody knows how do deescalate.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:31 am 
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Not 100% accurate but close enough.

——————

Allegedly a very high percentage (a quarter to a third) of their userbase was generating sexual content of an approved nature (consensual between adults). They have certainly promised to keep that as a use case. But you can just imagine given that statistic how all those innocent users might feel about perfectly approved but potentially scandalous private content being viewed without their input/permission.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:10 pm 
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I get the impression that a few of you are into old school adventure games. This should appeal to you.

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Cato wrote:
CotW is a method for ranking cards in increasing order of printability.

*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:39 am 
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Speaking of old games, one of my all time favorite platformers is getting a remake. What's particularly cool is it was initially just a fan project and then got promoted to an official product.

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Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 1:12 am 
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I'm poking at the idea of writing a prose piece about the Ur-dragon, but it's not a story and not really poetry. The lines that jangle in my head remind me somewhat of a cross between Tyger (or jabberwocky) and Ozymandias, but I've a weak skill in this kind of freeform.

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Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 2:19 pm 
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I mean, just try :D I've written those kind of things in the past, but mostly in Italian and just winging it sooo

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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 11:27 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
I'm poking at the idea of writing a prose piece about the Ur-dragon, but it's not a story and not really poetry. The lines that jangle in my head remind me somewhat of a cross between Tyger (or jabberwocky) and Ozymandias, but I've a weak skill in this kind of freeform.

As the resident poet around these parts and someone who has taught poetry before, I feel it is my duty to get overly technical to the point where people will roll their eyes at me, as you - yes, reader, you! - are likely doing right now.

Anyway, I wouldn't really call any of those three examples "freeform," necessarily. "The Tyger" is constructed of four-line stanzas in repeated AABB rhyme scheme with every line of seven or eight syllables. "The Jabberwocky," while essentially a nonsense poem, is structured very formally, again with four-line stanzas (this time with an ABAB rhyme scheme) with eight syllables a line (except for the fourth line in each stanza, which has six). "Ozymandias" is a sonnet, although I admit it is an odd rhyme scheme for a sonnet, and one of the rhymes (stone and frown) is pretty weak at least to modern American pronunciation. Though it was written by a British man, so maybe in a British dialect it still works. I'm not sure.

Anyway, nerdy English teacher diatribe notwithstanding, I certainly support seeing more poetry-like pieces around here. It's always fun to see!


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 11:53 pm 
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I meant content rather than form. An inspiration point of descriptives in metaphor rather than structure.
While I'd more borrow the narrative framing of Ozymandias was a man relating an image or experience.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:36 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
I meant content rather than form. An inspiration point of descriptives in metaphor rather than structure.
While I'd more borrow the narrative framing of Ozymandias was a man relating an image or experience.

Ah. Fair enough, then.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:46 pm 
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I noticed that at least a few of you don't *quite* understand what "modern AI" is and need to clear something up, which might explain part of the whole AI Dungeon debacle.

This turned into too big a post to leave up in its entirety, but most of it is really informative about AI itself and I would like everyone to read at least that part.

Relevant quotes, emphasis mine


Important words about how AI works


a bit more emotionally specific about how this affects AID


In other news, I recently got one of those small retro handhelds what come from China, and have been digging into the world of romhacks and retrogames. Mostly re-playing Pokémon Fire Red but where all the sprites have been swapped with moe-fied anime girl versions of the pokemon.

Actually, I had forgotten how good Fire Red / Leaf Green were as remakes and games, and have been having a blast with that, but also I have been examining it as an RPG while I play instead of just "as Pokémon" like I used to. I am finally able to see things like the various forests and tunnels you have to travel through being dungeons and how the enemies are balanced and the interesting choices it tries to have the player make, and it's making me love it even more, but I also can't help but see the MASSIVE underlying flaws in the system.

Like, the TM/HM system: it's honestly a great system that leads to interesting choices the same way, for example, giving you one single Fat Boy ammunition early on in Fallout 3 is. It's a precious resource that you don't know when might be best to use it, that you can fall back on to help you through a harder portion of the game. The problem it has is twofold. On the one hand, the very nature of the game (especially since this is a gen 1 remake and still has a lot of actual in-game emphasis on catching and evolving every pokemon) pushes you toward changing out your team members a lot, meaning you might well "waste" your good TM on a pokemon that you don't keep with you past this dungeon. The other problem is that not all TMs are created equal, and there are some REAL stinkers in the mix. HMs are even worse because you cannot delete them from the pokemon's movepool and most aren't good moves but are required to progress through the game.

There's also just the way types are set out. This being gen 3, each type/element was either physical or special (like "magical", for those who haven't played Pokémon), instead of each move being either a physical or special regardless of what element it is. So, many pokemon simply do not function as intended because they are undone by the system they exist in. Flareon cannot bring it's massive physical attack to bear because it doesn't learn enough attacks of the physical elemental types, Onix is undone by half because it cannot defend against any special elemental type despite having massive physical defense, etc. It's made me more appreciative of that physical/special split that came with gen 4.

An interesting thing that had never "clicked" for me before is realizing that, unlike most other RPGs, pokemon do not have a simple "attack" option; every move is tied down to a certain amount of Power Points, and there are a very finite, very small amount of PP-restoring items the games give you. It's like you're constantly using up mana, which means the game kind of forces you towards going back to the healing center extremely often. It's an interesting design decision that I think contributes toward the easiness/child-friendliness of the game, because even when you're tackling a dungeon, the game keeps pushing you to turn back and heal after a bit, essentially making you grind without going out of your way to grind (that is, if you're doing the normal RPG thing and fighting every wild enemy you come across for XP).

There's more to dig into, really, but I should cut it off here for now. I've been digging into many of these Pokémon romhacks recently, though, and because none of them yet have quite delivered on what I wanted, I've even been considering looking into romhacking myself just to get the experience I'm looking for.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 10:19 pm 
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If you figure out how to romhack a Pokemon game, I have a project that I've been dying to see realized for who knows how long.

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To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


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