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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:19 am 
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It's not really ironic for me to discuss server capacity when you're getting network errors. Those are substantially different.
Also as the rant continues and I start getting the impression your problems are mostly grounded in not knowing how to port forward in 2016, my sympathy dries up.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:05 am 
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Also, while I have not played and seen very little of Overwatch, I am more of the opinion to look down on the game and the developers (well, publisher more than the developers, but still) for including microtransactions on release day for a $40-60 game. I am a big follower of Jim Sterling and TotalBiscuit, there's no way I would be in favor of that.

Didn't I just watch a video where TB was wholeheartedly in approval of the practice as used in Overwatch?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:58 pm 
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I port forwarded the **** thing. It's an example of something I tried and something that it's ridiculous to expect people on ps4 and xbone to do 2 weeks after release when the vast majority of games release without tons of server hitches.


----------

They've released a new 80 MB patch and I have a new router (for separate reasons), so hopefully one of the two fixes it.

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Last edited by mjack33 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:59 pm 
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Rubik wrote:
NGA isn't as fun without your reviews of random things, though.


It's not fun to write them, long-term. More people find them annoying and spammy then entertaining, and it generally ends up bland dreck unless you really feel strongly about the thing one way or the other.

And no one goes back and reads it on a regular basis so it's basically throwing stuff out into the ether for a couple people to read and then that's all she wrote.

Edit: The main reason I stuck around as long as I did was Duels, and that place has become a massive aggressive, angry, **** that doesn't contain a lot of the best posters.

Edit: And tons of innapropriate off topic humor. Looks like the old off topic room, minus the off topic threads.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:37 pm 
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Your League of Legends rants were the reason I made an account on NGA, if that makes you feel any better.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:39 pm 
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**** dynamic queue.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:16 am 
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I feel like you and I have had this conversation previously. You feel that a minute or two of port forwarding is totally unacceptable for consoles and I completely and totally disagree. Its not a lot to ask, routers are not 1 size fits all, and tech is fairly pervasive in every aspect of western life. Being able to press a handful of buttons/ a minute of setup time on your end isn't a big ask.

Also as a "Duels person" origin story, my feelings are hurt.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:03 am 
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That's fine for pc. Consoles are different from pc. Because there's only 1 model and you only have to make it work with one model. This is why well over 90% of the time no one has any networking issues, at least with Verizon or Comcast. Because it's reasonable to expect that one model to work with at least the biggest isps without the user having to jump through hoops. That's the ENTIRE advantage of console, minus console exlusives. **** is supposed to work on release. Instead, Overwatch has people looking at port forwarding, google dns, ping and traceroute, talking to sony, talking to their isp, and basically everything else that you don't have to do for COD and every other big multiplayer game every year.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:48 am 
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Uh....No. The issue is almost always the router, of which there are thousands of different models, across different brands with different firmware. The fact you think the problem is grounded in the console shows why every time you bring it up I get slightly less sympathy for your case.

Routers and networking issues are the source of the issues you listed, not consoles. I have zero sympathy for you when you're hating on something without bothering to understand. Its also often why people find CoD to be a laggy mess with issues. Because they're less fussy, and thus you just have a worse experience without knowing why, when there are router issues.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:00 am 
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Mown wrote:
Also, while I have not played and seen very little of Overwatch, I am more of the opinion to look down on the game and the developers (well, publisher more than the developers, but still) for including microtransactions on release day for a $40-60 game. I am a big follower of Jim Sterling and TotalBiscuit, there's no way I would be in favor of that.

Didn't I just watch a video where TB was wholeheartedly in approval of the practice as used in Overwatch?

Yes, you did. I had not yet. Firstly, let me just thank you, and I am being sincere here, for pulling the "gotcha" card. I know some people really hate that, but I recognize that I am not called out on my statements and opinions enough.

Secondly, while I'll stand by most of my previous statement as phrased, I definitely need to change both my statement and my stance. For one thing, I had not actually been aware of how Overwatch's microtransaction system worked when I made that statement (this is where I admit I just skimmed over most of both mjack and Elijin's posts), so I could not have any real opinion of the implementation. For another, I kind of forget that Overwatch is on consoles as well as PC -- which I mention because one of my first reaction was something along the lines of "I would probably respect them more if it was a subscription service," but I realized that model would likely be unsustainable on the console market.

I also have two personal conceptions working against me in making a judgement here. Firstly, I have neither the familiarity nor understanding of a competitive online multiplayer game such as this, because all those aspects are generally points I avoid. Secondly, I am still in that awkward age bracket where I have just started coming into the disposable income that would allow me to justify a $40-60 purchase but haven't yet had it long enough to break out of the "games are too expensive" mindset.

So yes, in general, I'm going to look down on a $40-60 game for having microtransactions on launch. After having learned the exact nature of Overwatch's microtransaction system, I do think it could have been done better -- I am not a fan of "pay money for random stuff" (even buying Magic packs was always a calculated risk for me -- I weighed my overall chances of getting cards I wanted vs. cards I didn't care for or actively did not want). However, the game is dealing with factors I don't know how to consider and I realize now this makes it an exception to the typical mindset I have been parroting from Jim Sterling (because I will own up to not having an opinion of my own and aping others in this and other matters).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:40 am 
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I don't really watch TB except for that specific video because I read the discussion in this thread, so it was actually one of curiosity as to whether he had made any statements regarding it in earlier videos that seemed to indicate otherwise, since you included his name.
From what I've gathered out of the conversation here, my initial impression is that I'm not entirely in favor of how Overwatch has done it, although my stance is ultimately one of apathy since I doubt I would find myself playing Overwatch, so it's not going to affect me. However, if it were for a game I played, I would probably be upset over some of the things brought up here. I'd ultimately need a more accurate picture than mjack's writing though.

In other news, I'm playing Undertale for the first time, and I don't get why anyone thinks it's good. I'll probably go and read reviews on it when I'm done with it. Assuming I actually finish it.
edit: Okay, I finished a route. The ending impressed me about as much as the last boss fight in GW2, which is one of the most disappointing moments I've had in gaming.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:34 am 
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Okay, I'm going to make a writeup of my experiences as I went through Undertale, roughly how I remember it. As a preface, I'm a contrarian by nature, and went into the game knowing it was one of the most well-received releases of the last year. I didn't go into the game expecting to be impressed, rather the opposite. In terms of content spoilers, I knew it had the kill/spare mechanic, and I had seen a .gif of a character attacking the interface, but that was about it.

writeup

tl;dr: The art, mechanics, characters and music was all ranging from bad to awful.

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Last edited by Mown on Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:49 am 
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At low rarities, which is going to be 90% of all the items you get in Overwatch, there is a very high chance you are going to get something you cannot possibly use. This is because you can only use one common item and 2 rare items per character (plus one rare item per profile), and there are about 500 common items and 350 (120 of which are uncraftable player icons) rare items in the game. Thus it takes forever to get something you really want and it takes for freaking ever to get any non-negligible number of duplicates so you can at least get the 5-15 coin per item train working (50 if you are lucky unlucky?). This is going to get much worse with every hero they release as well.

At high rarities, this is replaced by the problem that the items are so rare that getting anything you don't want (or worse a duplicate) "feels bad". Epic coin drops are worth 100 or 200 coins less than an epic item you do want (an epic item you don't want is 250 coins less with the chance to be 200 coins less in the future). Legendary coin drops (800 less for a duplicate skin or 500 less for the coin drop) are worth A TON less than a skin you do want, and a duplicate legendary skin or a legendary skin for a character you don't ever touch is one of the "worst" feelings in the game atm. Both epic and legendary items cost so much to craft and are so rare to get that it's a constant frustration of getting Mogor the Ogre over and over at the best and the constant frustration of getting duplicate copies of Mogor the Ogre at it's lowest points.


^^ The entire system is made worse by the fact that you can't sell items back to the store. The only ways to get coins is to literally get coins or get duplicate items. So it takes a very long time to craft a 1000 coin skin.





As far as I'm aware, there are three common ways to look at this:

1) It's cosmetics only and it's a way to make the game last longer and if everyone looked the same it would be boring anyways. People who complain about it are being whiny and entitled.

2) It's the only "reward" you get for playing the game and even if it doesn't matter the fact that people are repeatedly met with disappointment by this system is a very negative part of the player experience. Especially since they've intentionally made it pervasive as **** to try and invade as much of the player experience as possible to "force" people to buy more (no one is forced to do anything).

3) "Meh."

I'll throw my support behind 2. I think the system needs to exist in some form but the current system is a gatcha bag system without the actual highs that make people excited to keep going. The main positive part of the system is that I don't understand how it could possibly incentivize anyone to spend money on it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:58 pm 
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The above post is almost nothing but pointless bitching at this point. In fact, I am 100% sure that there there was no good reason to post it. SO. That means I am about to make a post, or at least attempt to make a post, WORTH responding to.

So why does the loot crate system actually matter that much? Why is it not "just" cosmetics? Well, let me start explaining that by explaining what my in-game stats look like:

General Stats: QuickPlay
Most Eliminations - 32
Most Objective Kills - 20
Most Damage Done - 14,865
Most Time On Fire - 7:40
Most Final Blows - 21
Most Objective Time - 3:14
Most Healing Done - 7,542
Most Solo Kills - 21

The averages are not included because the averages are across all characters, who have vastly different playstyles, and thus almost useless.

Number of Wins: 123
Time Played - 34 Hours

^ To be blunt, I care about absolutely none of the above. All it's meant to say is that I've played a **** and I'm not completely terrible. I've also gotten a good idea of who I like and who I don't and what each because I've played a lot (at least 8 games) with everyone trying to figure that out. Well that's not a lot a lot I'm working on improving that (playing more with everybody) and I'm aware that is one way to "sink" in time. I'm not going to pretend my win rate is anything fantastic, so I've probably played more than 240 games.


In all this time, there is no "carrot" to chase other than the Loot System. There's no single player. Ranked isn't out yet. There's no little number going up under your name. There are no golden heroes. There aren't even hero levels. 1/2 of the main menu is currently dedicated to the loot crate system, and there currently "isn't anything else to do" except for that. The game has already gotten quite repetitive, and aside from a rare few games (I've played a whopping 3) where someone tries something really cheesy, the meta itself has actually gotten pretty figured out and everyone is either terrible at the game or already reached a basic level of competence needed to counter-pick people. The actual games themselves are either steamrolls, or close games where both teams kind of look the same because some characters (Lucio, Mercy, Reinhardt, and Widowmaker being the biggest offenders) are just too good not to use and certain characters just ... aren't. The same with the maps. Certain points are better to defend, so expect to see like 2 turrets and some shield walls there. Either your team is going to be 3 widowmakers, a tracer, and a genji; in which case it will be over in 5 minutes and hey exp; or you are going to go with something somewhat meta-standard; and games are going to start run together either way. The only "carrot" to chase currently in the game isn't really worth chasing, and thus there's basically no sense of progression right now.

So in a game with "First Win of the Day", there isn't really a reason, progression-wise, to log in every day. At least not one that "feels good" most of the time. The experience is starting to get repetitive, and the thing that's supposed to make it not repetitive.... well doesn't.

Edit: 80% of playtime is across 3 or 4 weekends so please no responses telling me I need to take more breaks than that (unless it's the game's fault).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Widowmaker is currently what I consider to be one of the most "interesting" Overwatch characters.

Her main role is a sniper. The way the game works, an attack does double damage if it is a "critical". This usually means headshots, but a few things like Bastion's core also take this kind of damage. Widow is a sniper who:

- Has a hitscan sniper rifle. This, basically, means her bullets take no time to travel. What this means in practical terms is that you don't have to lead your shots and predict anything. It hits exactly where you aim. Much easier.

- Has a semi-automatic sniper rifle that can be charged for up to triple damage after about a second to 1.5 seconds of charging. This will do 50 damage base and 150 damage charged, on a body shot. 2 characters in the game have 150 health, and only tanks have over 300 health.

- Has a sniper rifle with 10 shots.

- Has a smg that shares ammo with the sniper rifle and can fire up to 30 shots (the sniper rifle uses 3 bullets per shot). This is automatically available as soon as she unscopes and does decent damage at mid range and short range. By comparison, it does about 10-30 less damage per second compared to the "Call of Duty" hero Soldier 76's primary weapon.

- Has a mine that does "enough" damage to make her smg a good finisher and acts as an early warning system when placed on an approach.

- Has a grappling hook that is one of the best position and escape tools in the game.

- Gives her entire team wallhacks for about 5 seconds as her ult. As one of the fastest charging ults in the game, it can be up as soon as every 15 seconds depending on the game.


In the hands of a complete noob, this hero is terrible. In the hands of an expert, it is literally able to team wipe and has no hard counters other than a better Widowmaker on the opposing team. The only way professionals have found to really hard counter a good widowmaker, other than a better widowmaker, is two Winston's dedicated to taking out the Widowmaker every single time she shows up.

As a side note, this hero has a higher win rate on pc. So far as to make it so that they are considering nerfing her on pc but leaving her untouched on consoles.



Has ANYONE seen a more powerful sniper in a multiplayer video game? At least on paper? Or is this as broken as I think it is?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:21 pm 
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@ Mown: I disagree with you on nearly every aspect on Undertale, but I am really glad to hear your opinion of it.

One thing I've slowly come to the conclusion to, not just about Undertale but about shows like Madoka Magica or Evangelion, is that the central aspect of it being a deconstruction means it has somewhat limited appeal, even if a large amount of people do find those things as "the best thing evar!!1!one!".

Like, personally, I love Undertale and think it's one of the most well-designed games I've ever played, but I've had to come to terms with the fact that it checks most of the boxes of what I like in video games, and that other people are going to have major problems with it. Not that I think it's perfect (there are actually a few flaws that are HUGE issues for me), but I do wish more people could see what I see in it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:06 am 
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I don't know if it has limited appeal, it has pretty widespread recognition. And I do think the popularity of the game fuels me to dislike it more, but I question if I would even like it without all the buzz. I think it starts really weak, with a really slow segment of forced handholding, coupled with a few attempts to establish itself as clever. I don't think the aesthetics of the game are great, although I've gone back and listened to some of the music and it's better than I remember, even if there are some tracks that reflexively prompt a negative reaction in me. I wonder if all the talking tripped me up on that front, because I do think the sound effects for that were generally awful.

The actual mechanics of the actual gameplay is very shallow. I've mentioned that I do like the dodge gameplay, but the surrounding framework is weak. I never discovered a worthwhile interplay between attacking and acting, which I think is a large missed opportunity. I basically ended up using one side exclusively depending on whether I wanted to murder or spare. And while the premise of choosing whether to save or kill someone is interesting, I don't see it as a compelling choice. I don't get the sense of stakes in my actions, there's no implication of balance of the scales, which is why I just killed anyone I didn't like interacting with. Effectively anyone. I've seen people praise the characters in Undertale, which I find completely absurd. Given the sheer amount of talking a lot of them do, I don't get the sense that they are anything but shallow archetypes that spew memes, so even if they actually have depth, I have such a negative impressions that I'm not going to be willing to spend the time with them for it to develop.

At the end of the day, I feel like Undertale tries to present two core experiences, but doesn't create a strong enough cohesion between them than I can't evaluate them in a vacuum. If I want the story portion of the game, I would rather play a visual novel, with real emotional payoff. If I want to play a bullet-hell-lite, I would choose something that has more mechanical depth and impressive visuals. Undertale's individual components aren't strong, and the sum isn't greater than its parts.

I've had such a strong urge to complain about the game ever since I finished it, it's honestly rather embarrassing. I don't know where it comes from. I might do the extreme runs, but I keep telling myself that I shouldn't repeat an experience I didn't like, and there is no motivation for me to do it other than further fuel my dislike of the game.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:25 am 
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As someone who has not played or managed to care about undertale, its interesting to see such contrasting pieces of feedback.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:45 am 
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Undertale reminds me of Attack on Titan. I know I'm SUPPOSED to care about the characters, but the game doesn't actually do enough to warrant that kind of attachment. What's left is a system where there's supposed to be some moral weight to a lot of your decisions but in reality I just don't give a ****.

The game is also constantly giving off the feeling that it thinks it is more clever than it actually is, so that when there was supposed to just have been some big payoff to something "clever" it did, I'm left feeling more annoyed than satisfied at a sense of some disconnect. It might just be my sense of humor combined with a bit of overanalysis, but if the game was as clever as it thinks it is I probably would have enjoyed it more. Instead, I'm left feeling like I missed something and there was some other part to the joke or the story I just didn't notice. But ... there usually isn't.

The gameplay is "meh" which really doesn't help. At the end of the day I'm left wondering what the big deal is and thinking it might just be an internet **** working people up to think the game is better than it actually is. Like the combined experience of sharing stories about this great game we all just played is just as big a part of the enjoyment of the experience as actually playing the game itself, and since I didn't care for it I can't really share in that so I don't get that part of it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:59 pm 
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Mown wrote:
I don't know if it has limited appeal, it has pretty widespread recognition. And I do think the popularity of the game fuels me to dislike it more, but I question if I would even like it without all the buzz.

Well, I feel it's a lot like Evangelion in particular: some people are going to "get" it and love it, a lot of people are going to like it but the "meaning" is going to fly right over their heads, and then a lot of people are going to come in expecting something mind-blowing and then be disappointed by the actual product, whether they "get" it or not. I feel that the people who don't understand the game any deeper than the surface level have ruined it for a lot of others who would have otherwise thought it was at least good.

Mown wrote:
I've had such a strong urge to complain about the game ever since I finished it, it's honestly rather embarrassing. I don't know where it comes from. I might do the extreme runs, but I keep telling myself that I shouldn't repeat an experience I didn't like, and there is no motivation for me to do it other than further fuel my dislike of the game.

I'd be interested in hearing more from you, whether or not you do end up doing more playthroughs. For one thing, a recent critique I've heard of the game which I find myself agreeing with is that it behaves like some sort of psychological examination of the player, and it's been interesting getting to see inside your head these last few posts.

mjack33 wrote:
Undertale reminds me of Attack on Titan. I know I'm SUPPOSED to care about the characters, but the game doesn't actually do enough to warrant that kind of attachment.

I honestly think that even the people who rate the game positively put too much weight in the characters. As you and Mown said, and to which I agree with to an extent, there often isn't enough time given to characters (major or minor) to allow them to be deeply characterized. That's a negative criticism I've heard that I agree makes it difficult for some people to get into it: that several characters don't get any deep characterization until and unless you go through the game multiple times to get all the endings. Now, personally, I feel that the game does a magnificent job giving every single character a personality, but I can see how some people would be annoyed at the lack of character depth on some of them.


mjack33 wrote:
The game is also constantly giving off the feeling that it thinks it is more clever than it actually is, so that when there was supposed to just have been some big payoff to something "clever" it did, I'm left feeling more annoyed than satisfied at a sense of some disconnect.

I'm curious what moments jumped out at you as "too clever for its own britches". I imagine Photoshop Flowey is one of them?


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