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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 10:52 am 
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I assume we're still in a vacuum.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 10:55 am 
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i would agree that mown is likely to prioritize winning above most if not all other things in practice but that doesn't actually say a lot about how he plays i think

i feel like most of the games hosted here probably favour town in a massclaim but i don't really feel like going back and checking, and it might be hard to analyze considering how complex a lot of the games here are.

its definitely a swingy play that could feasibly end up heavily crippling town though, even if i think it will probably end up in our favour

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:05 pm 
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My role is vague enough in its description that there's definitely room for bastardy, but the important part is that I am town. Weird flavor to it, though.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 3:36 pm 
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I voted for Rooby Doo as a meme but he hasn't showed up yet so I'm going to keep it on.

I've played at a few places where Miller claims are commonplace to the point at which they are almost expected. I am taking the reaction to a supposed Miller claim to believe that is not the case here?

Personally, I am not in favour of a massclaim, I generally find them somewhat unfair and cheap if claims are at all AI. That said, if it happens I'll partake, but I prefer trying to solve the game based on behaviour, not claims.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:34 pm 
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They are not commonplace, but they aren't uncommon enough to be implausible either. IIRC, the last time one came around we had an immediate claim as well, with the logic being that it's better to admit to one as truthful town immediately so investigative roles have a clear expectation of results, as opposed to "getting caught" and then claiming as a dismissal argument.

@Zinger, are you using miller in the classic sense of being town returning unfavorable cop results or are you using miller like I tend to dethy games to imply a temporary inversion of results?

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:05 pm 
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Given how he said it is a type of miller, I'm going to assume it isn't in the classic sense. Either way, I'd like to hear Zinger's response to JD's question.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:07 pm 
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I've never been a big fan of just claiming Miller up front as I find it a little cheap - if you play well, you shouldn't be in fear of being investigated bar interference from redirectors - but I see the rationale for it, and generally I find that early day Miller claims are truthful. For that reason, I see no reason to doubt Zinger's sincerity, but I'm a foreigner here so I could have a different thought process around these kinds of things.

Rubik hasn't posted yet, which concerns me because from my experience playing with him on ZD he's usually among the more active players. I think he would be an interesting direction to go for day 1, though I'm also not used to week long day phases and having this much time to talk.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:12 pm 
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@Sloth:

Keep in mind that Zinger will not lie, but he can and will mislead. That being said, he claimed "type of miller". So being exhaustive in what that means is necessary. Otherwise, you may end up fooled.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 6:41 pm 
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@Sloth:

Keep in mind that Zinger will not lie, but he can and will mislead. That being said, he claimed "type of miller". So being exhaustive in what that means is necessary. Otherwise, you may end up fooled.

Has Zinger been known to lie at all in the past? Or does he exclusively twist the truth?


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:09 pm 
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Barring PoVs, he doesn't necessarily lie so much so as say just enough so that assumptions can be made to draw conclusions about what he's said.

In other words, he's guilty of lying by omission; however, he's not guilty of directly lying to you.


In this case, you can trust that what he said is true. That is, he is not lying when he says he is some "type of miller". The issue is to what extent is he some "type of miller". Is he a miller in the sense that he is town and, when investigated, he'll come up as mafia/something negative? Is he a "type of miller" in the sense that just like as a miller comes up negatively in a result, he'll come up negatively in a result?

I find it easier to judge what he has said with his actions to better get a read of him.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:20 pm 
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At this point I'm going to

Vote: Zinger


For now it is a placeholder while I await Zinger's response to JD's question.

In the meantime,

@Mown: Are we still in a vacuum? I know you may be sleeping, but I want to make sure you don't miss that question.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:42 pm 
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You know what, I have some information on the game I would like to discuss.

I believe there are at least two flavors of scum. My Role PM mentions both "Ghosts" and "Vampires". I interact with them differently, but both are implied to have the ability to kill and my win-con says I win when there are no monsters left, which I believe to be the basic town win-con, though it might be stated in other flavorful ways for other roles. I don;t know if there's one scumteam that consists of both ghost and vampire roles, a mafia group and a Serial Killer, or two legit mafias (unlikely given game size), but I do strongly suspect both exist.

There is a possibility, depending on the flavor and info that others have, that I'm an insanely complex quasi-vanilla since all my abilities have to do with ghosts and/or vampires, but it seems highly unlikely that there would be any sort of mislead.

I would like to see if Zinger has any statement given this information.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:51 pm 
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Oh no.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:51 pm 
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Barring PoVs, he doesn't necessarily lie so much so as say just enough so that assumptions can be made to draw conclusions about what he's said.

In other words, he's guilty of lying by omission; however, he's not guilty of directly lying to you.


In this case, you can trust that what he said is true. That is, he is not lying when he says he is some "type of miller". The issue is to what extent is he some "type of miller". Is he a miller in the sense that he is town and, when investigated, he'll come up as mafia/something negative? Is he a "type of miller" in the sense that just like as a miller comes up negatively in a result, he'll come up negatively in a result?

I find it easier to judge what he has said with his actions to better get a read of him.

Ok, that makes sense. I better understand the perceived ambiguity surrounding the Miller claim then.

I also don't dislike your vote in that direction.

The new information is interesting. I'm curious to see what Zinger has to say about it, though for the moment I am still feeling inclined to believe him.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:10 pm 
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I would like to see if Zinger has any statement given this information.

Yeah, I have statements. Will get back to you after I answer my favourite Spider-Bro's question.

15377 wrote:
@Zinger, are you using miller in the classic sense of being town returning unfavorable cop results or are you using miller like I tend to dethy games to imply a temporary inversion of results?

Aight, so this is complex. In all my years playing, I haven't actually ever been a Miller before, to the best of my recollection, so I haven't really had to think about the connotations of how a Miller role interacts with my No Lie Policy until now. So let's talk about that.

Technically, my No Lie Policy states that I will never knowingly tell a lie where a game of Mafia is concerned with the sole exclusion being statements that pertain to my alignment (though, as others have already pointed out, I won't jump to correct inaccurate conclusions you might draw based on the truths I dish out). The alignment clause exists to protect teammates in case I have any that could be harmed by my stubborn truthiness (like if I were Mafia, for example).

Miller, in the classic sense, is a Town who shows up as Mafia when investigated by a Cop. If I were to claim I am a classic Miller, that by definition tells you what my alignment is, therefore it is an alignment statement and excluded from my NLP. Of course, the reverse is also true, since being a Miller is a detail about my role. Technically, an Alignment Cop in the traditional sense is also indicative of my alignment, because you don't usually find an Alignment Cop among the Mafia, but I don't think anyone would argue that claiming Cop isn't inherently an alignment claim. So is claiming Miller an alignment-related claim? The answer is both yes and no, which is very confusing, as far as my NLP is concerned. It's a paradox. A classic Miller claim both does and does not fall under the alignment exclusion clause of my NLP.

So what to do? What to do?

I could say I am a Miller in the classic sense, but what good does it do to say that when 5 seconds later KoD or someone else will chime in with "that's an alignment statement, therefore it can't be trusted under his NLP."

This is really frustrating.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:26 pm 
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Okay, let me try to answer the questions about my Miller claim without referencing alignment at all. Remember, I am not answering in this way to beat around the bush or be coy, I am answering in this way so that you can trust the answers because if I mention alignment at all even tangentially, somebody will point out that my statements fall under my alignment exclusion clause and can't be trusted under my No Lie Policy.

This is going to be difficult, but here goes.

I make the following claims about my role, which are true:
  1. In my role there is a triggered clause that specifically references "investigators".
  2. This clause outlines a very specific response to be returned to "investigators" should they target me.
  3. This 'very specific response' supersedes and replaces what their role tells them they should receive instead.

There. I think that is the best I can do for an alignment-neutral Miller claim. I spent way too long twisting brain cells over this.

Oh, and there's lore in my role about why it works the way it does, which, ironically, I will get into when I answer Tevish's questions for me. But that will have to wait until later cuz I got stuff to do.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:39 pm 
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That's an unnecessarily roundabout way to just answer something that is easily answered by saying "I am town". I don't get your alignment exemption thing at all, if you are town, you could say that truthfully and you wouldn't be sacrificing any teammates.

Maybe I'm just a little confused because that's a policy I have never seen and one that seems needlessly complex. From my perspective, it looks like an attempt to avoid lying by saying you're town while simultaneously avoiding claiming to be mafia.

Can someone back up the alignment exemption thing? Is it normal for Zinger to completely avoid simply saying "I am town" regardless of whether it's true or not? The way you're going about it seems incredibly anti-town to me because it is not productive, it's just causing me to be more and more confused. Why even bother claiming Miller in the first place if you're going to do so in such an ambiguous manner that makes it difficult to decide whether to reliably trust it or not?


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:43 pm 
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Yeah, it's typical Zinger to make very roundabout, neutral statements to avoid saying "I am town" even though it's a permitted 'lie' under his policy (I believe the only one). He adheres very tightly to it, even though you need to be super careful of exact words when reading his posts.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:00 pm 
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Here's the thing about the situation as it seems to me. Zinger wants to be believed when he makes his claim; however, because the claim deals with alignment in some form, some of us will just point out it can't be trusted.

No matter how much is said on the issue, it'll come back to Zinger claiming he is miller and how we choose to approach it.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:32 pm 
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And again, since I didn't do my due diligence in my last post, it is "type of miller". He's pedantic with his wording so his choice of wording was not by accident in his original post.

He's more than likely already thought on this since he didn't bother deep diving into this "problem" in his original post. Otherwise, we'd have seen this sort of monologue from him at the start when he bothered claiming in the first place.

If I were a betting man, I'd say his talk about the Miller role and how it interacts with his personal NLP (No Lie Policy) is an attempt at pushing people to drawing the conclusion that he is a typical Miller even though he never claimed that in his original post*.

* Reference: In his monologue he talks about the classic Miller role and classic Alignment Cop roles and how they're tied to a specific alignment.


Now, given his general claims about his role, he could just be a babyface in the sense that, like a miller, an investigation on him will return a certain result.

In short, his response does nothing but to help mislead people into thinking, given his monologue, that he's a classic Miller (despite directly claiming he is a "type of miller").



@Tevish:

Regarding your role info, I believe it as that lines up with some passive role info I have. We're certainly looking at numerous threats though how many is the question.

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