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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:34 pm 
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I have a No Lie Policy because I find lying distasteful, and don't like doing it.

So yeah, I generally avoid mentioning my alignment in general because even though I have a clause that allows me to lie about my alignment, I still don't enjoy lying. The purpose of the alignment clause is more to protect my teammates (if I have any) than to protect me or to allow me to lie about my alignment.

But anyway. To beat a dead horse, yes, I am a Town Miller. But as KoD will point out, my alignment clause makes that statement unreliable, whereas my previous post, which is a bit more complex, is more reliable cuz it circumvents the alignment clause.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:37 pm 
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Now, given his general claims about his role, he could just be a babyface in the sense that, like a miller, an investigation on him will return a certain result.

In short, his response does nothing but to help mislead people into thinking, given his monologue, that he's a classic Miller (despite directly claiming he is a "type of miller")..

My claim supports the potential for classic miller, classic babyface, and probably some other variations I can't think of right now.

But, you know, that was the only way I could think to phrase it without the entire claim being null-and-voided by my NLP alignment exception.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:41 pm 
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And again, since I didn't do my due diligence in my last post, it is "type of miller". He's pedantic with his wording so his choice of wording was not by accident in his original post.

He's more than likely already thought on this since he didn't bother deep diving into this "problem" in his original post. Otherwise, we'd have seen this sort of monologue from him at the start when he bothered claiming in the first place.

If I were a betting man, I'd say his talk about the Miller role and how it interacts with his personal NLP (No Lie Policy) is an attempt at pushing people to drawing the conclusion that he is a typical Miller even though he never claimed that in his original post*.

* Reference: In his monologue he talks about the classic Miller role and classic Alignment Cop roles and how they're tied to a specific alignment.


Now, given his general claims about his role, he could just be a babyface in the sense that, like a miller, an investigation on him will return a certain result.

In short, his response does nothing but to help mislead people into thinking, given his monologue, that he's a classic Miller (despite directly claiming he is a "type of miller").



@Tevish:

Regarding your role info, I believe it as that lines up with some passive role info I have. We're certainly looking at numerous threats though how many is the question.

See this is why I have problems with playstyles like that. No matter what way you look at it, the way he's approaching this Miller claim is really anti-town.

I'm still feeling inclined to believe him, based only on what people have said about the way he approaches his policy, but I don't have to like it. I would almost be down to PL him because he has created a dangerous WIFOM scenario that is a hinderance to scumhunting.

On that note though, I'm going to quickly read back and try to evaluate people's early reactions to the claim.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:41 pm 
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Zinger2099 wrote:
Now, given his general claims about his role, he could just be a babyface in the sense that, like a miller, an investigation on him will return a certain result.

In short, his response does nothing but to help mislead people into thinking, given his monologue, that he's a classic Miller (despite directly claiming he is a "type of miller")..

My claim supports the potential for classic miller, classic babyface, and probably some other variations I can't think of right now.

But, you know, that was the only way I could think to phrase it without the entire claim being null-and-voided by my NLP alignment exception.

Exactly. WIFOM. Just a bunch of WIFOM. Which goes back to me questioning why bother making the claim in the first place if it would be this ambiguous.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Zinger2099 wrote:
I have a No Lie Policy because I find lying distasteful, and don't like doing it.

Mafia is a game of lies and deception though. I have an issue with lying in real life situations, but when taking on a role which sometimes demands a certain degree of lying, it's not the same.

I am starting to understand this situation a bit better though.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:50 pm 
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Naga wrote:
So @Zinger: why do you volunteer that you are a type of miller up front?

This is the first post that brings attention to the Miller claim. Questions Zinger about it, which is fine given the different views on miller claims that different communities share. However, part of me is wondering if the whole intention of this was to bring attention to it, seeing as it came several posts after the claim itself, for the purpose of getting people to pressure Zinger. If that's the case, I have mixed feelings on it. I haven't seen Naga's scum play and I can't say this derives significantly from what I've seen of his town play, but I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind for later.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:51 pm 
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You know what, I have some information on the game I would like to discuss.

I believe there are at least two flavors of scum. My Role PM mentions both "Ghosts" and "Vampires". I interact with them differently, but both are implied to have the ability to kill and my win-con says I win when there are no monsters left, which I believe to be the basic town win-con, though it might be stated in other flavorful ways for other roles. I don;t know if there's one scumteam that consists of both ghost and vampire roles, a mafia group and a Serial Killer, or two legit mafias (unlikely given game size), but I do strongly suspect both exist.

There is a possibility, depending on the flavor and info that others have, that I'm an insanely complex quasi-vanilla since all my abilities have to do with ghosts and/or vampires, but it seems highly unlikely that there would be any sort of mislead.

I would like to see if Zinger has any statement given this information.

So, here's the thing about your Ghosts and Vampires claim.

My role paints me as a pretty bad dude. I'm an assassin for the Yakuza. That's the flavour of my role, not alignment. The story info I have claims that the Mafia team are some kind of cult that were looking to bind themselves to evil spirits. They thought, me being a big bad Yakuza member, I'd know how to help them do that, so they came to me first for help. My role backstory says I thought their plan was **** crazy. Like, I'm a bad dude, but I still have my priorities in the right place, yanno? I told them to shove it. But apparently that just made them want to try harder, and now they might have sought help elsewhere and maybe even succeeded.

This, again, is the "backstory" presented in my role.

So, according to my role, there are heavy implications that we are looking for evil spirits and/or the idiot people who might have already bound themselves to these evil spirits. Ghosts and Vampires sounds about right, for that.

And yeah, I know, you're all thinking "He said he's Yakuza, that means Mafia right?"

Nope. Again, that's the flavour, not the alignment. I am Village-aligned.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:53 pm 
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Zinger2099 wrote:
Now, given his general claims about his role, he could just be a babyface in the sense that, like a miller, an investigation on him will return a certain result.

In short, his response does nothing but to help mislead people into thinking, given his monologue, that he's a classic Miller (despite directly claiming he is a "type of miller")..

My claim supports the potential for classic miller, classic babyface, and probably some other variations I can't think of right now.

But, you know, that was the only way I could think to phrase it without the entire claim being null-and-voided by my NLP alignment exception.

Exactly. WIFOM. Just a bunch of WIFOM. Which goes back to me questioning why bother making the claim in the first place if it would be this ambiguous.

:bored:

Take a step back, breathe.

Before you go saying the way I am playing is anti-town, ya might want to follow that trail all the way to the end and connect the dots. Like maybe explain why you think the way I have outlined my Miller claim will a) hurt the town, or b) assist scum, or c) both.

And, for the record, just because you're confused, doesn't mean I have hurt the town.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 10:02 pm 
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Zinger2099 wrote:
I have a No Lie Policy because I find lying distasteful, and don't like doing it.

Mafia is a game of lies and deception though. I have an issue with lying in real life situations, but when taking on a role which sometimes demands a certain degree of lying, it's not the same.

I am starting to understand this situation a bit better though.

Mafia is a game of hidden information, in which an uninformed majority tries to route an informed minority by working together to learn what they don't start out knowing. Often it is a game of deception, but I have played it for many many years now on both sides of the alignment coin without lying once, so I would use that as evidence that Mafia is more than just a game about deception.

As for why I claimed, well, I don't usually wait very long before I make a claim of some kind in most games I play in. I like to share information about my role. It's fun for me to be a gatekeeper of hidden information in a game that revolves around hidden information, illuminating the masses with my kernels of insight on the game's state. This, for me, is where most of the fun in Mafia lies.

Also, I've never been a Miller, so being one was kind of fun at first until I realized the wrench it threw into my No Lie Policy and my usual play style.

I'm not obfuscating my claim. But I have a clause in my NLP that excludes alignment statements, so for me to make a factual claim about how my role interacts with investigators, I needed to leave alignments out of it. I have done that, and now a post exists where you can go back and learn a few key things about my role. Does it help you figure out my alignment? No. But then, that wasn't really the point. I don't make claims to help you figure out what my alignment is. :wha: I make them to share information about my role so the uninformed majority is just a little more informed.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:56 pm 
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from what ive seen zinger usually plays like this and both uses and is limited by his nlp so i dont think theres much more to be read past 'investigates on him may be unreliable'

incidentally does anyone have any role info on where in the hotel things are happening?

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:39 am 
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Zinger's claim and explanation is very consistent with his usual playstyle, so I think we should let him be for now.

@Tevish: be careful about drawing too many conclusions based on flavor. Your role implies that there are undead scum, but that does not necessarily mean that all scum are undead, nor that all undead are scum.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:51 am 
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Can someone back up the alignment exemption thing? Is it normal for Zinger to completely avoid simply saying "I am town" regardless of whether it's true or not? The way you're going about it seems incredibly anti-town to me because it is not productive, it's just causing me to be more and more confused. Why even bother claiming Miller in the first place if you're going to do so in such an ambiguous manner that makes it difficult to decide whether to reliably trust it or not?


zinger's NLP excludes town claims because if he claimed town every game he was town but not every game he was mafia he'd just be lynched every time he was mafia. Its anti-town in the game where he's town but not as much as it would be anti-mafia when he's mafia if he didn't do it, and the times when his NLP causes him to play against his win condition are arguably outweighed by whatever benefits he gains from them (such as being able to claim and have people believe him regardless of context)

With that said, zinger's miller claim isn't particularly AI in my opinion. The only thing he's concretely claimed is that investigations made on him are subverted in some way, but without knowing the details of how they are subverted he could easily have any sort of role. For instance, he could be a serial killer that when investigated appears as whatever faction the person investigating him belongs to.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:53 am 
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from what ive seen zinger usually plays like this and both uses and is limited by his nlp so i dont think theres much more to be read past 'investigates on him may be unreliable'

incidentally does anyone have any role info on where in the hotel things are happening?


its not role info but the flavour in my role-pm off-handedly mentions a basement, if that helps

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:21 am 
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Ragnarokio wrote:
For instance, he could be a serial killer that when investigated appears as whatever faction the person investigating him belongs to.

If an investigator targets me to learn my alignment, instead of receiving my alignment, they will receive a specific sequence of words that could be very easily misconstrued as confirmation of my alignment, but they won't have actually seen my alignment, they will have seen a specific sequence of words outlined in my role PM.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:36 am 
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You know what? I'm just going to go full disclosure and tell you all the details of my Miller claim, but, in doing so, none of this post is protected by my No Lie Policy because it is making a statement about my alignment, so take it all with a grain of salt, I guess.

I am a Miller in the classic sense. I am a Villager who turns up Mafia aligned when investigated.

None of that statement is protected under my No Lie Policy and all of it can be completely made up without breaching my NLP if I felt so inclined to do so. You'll just have to decide for yourself whether or not you believe me without my NLP to back you up.

Ugh, I feel dirty now. *puts NLP blanket back on* No more alignment statements from me for at least two more games please.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:51 am 
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can I get a remark on what constitutes paraphrasing the GM as per 6c? Tevish and Zinger overstepped at least what I perceived to be illegal in the context of the game
on the assumption that it isn't made up of course, as that obviously wouldn't constitute paraphrasing

sloth, can you elaborate on your use of the word 'cheap'? it sounds like you're making dismissals on moral grounds.
also what does AI stand for? anti-investigation? all in? ...absurdly incompetent?

and kod: short answer; yes. long answer; no, but still, yes.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:02 am 
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Interesting.

Right now, I'm inclined to believe Zinger is Village-aligned, though having played with Scum!Zinger he's tricksy enough that I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility. Suffice to say, I don't support lynching him D1 over No Claim-No Info.

I'd like to hear from KoD what his passive info corroborating my role PM info and Zinger's is, especially if there's anything new.

VOTE: Aaarrrgh

It's still early d1 but I want to apply some pressure behind this: You take the time to call into question the undead/scum theory, which has two corroborating sources claimed (KoD and Zinger). If you know something, say something

POST PREVIEW: Oh snap paraphrasing bad? If I get struck down I guess I deserve it for assuming standard practices would apply.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:02 am 
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alignment-indicative

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:10 am 
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thanks amber

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:11 am 
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anyway i mostly ask because my role pm mentions some locations in the hotel and im curious as to whether it might have an effect on the game

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