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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:30 am 
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In 2hg builds of this, consider Never running Form of the Dragon unless you want your partner to rage quit, cursing your name.

Spellbreaker Behemoth can benefit both yourself and your partner so it's at least a very good play in 2hg, especially vs control partners.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:40 pm 
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OK, talking 1v1, I would like to ask you people a question:

First, let me lay down the scenario -- I have 59 of my 60 cards in my EtD list sorted out; it's a semi-ramp oriented build with a stack of big fatties to close, with a devour sub-theme (I've posted the list below). However, I'm stuck between two cards for the last slot -- currently, I'm using Dragon Breath, but before I decided on the other 59 cards I was running crucible of fire as well, which I've now removed. I only want one of crucible of fire or Dragon Breath in my build, but I've just noticed the similarities they share (i.e. they are both enchantments that buff my dragons but are useless on their own), so I'm trying to decide what would be a better fit in my deck. I'll list the pros and cons for each that I've thought of, and maybe then you can add some I may have missed, or just offer your advice on which would be better to add (N.B. I'm not interested in other advice you may have about my build; but maybe if it's just a card to fill the slot these would and you have a very convincing argument).

so, dragon breath
pros: cheap cost; is a good discard target & semi-immune to counter spells; can enchant anything at first
cons: not global effect; need to pay each turn for buff

crucible of fire
pros: global effect; one-time cost
cons: a bit more expensive (potentially taking up the turn where you may want to start laying your beaters, but sometimes coming in perfectly the turn before), removable (and the only enchantment removal target in the deck, making it a sink for any enchantment removal spells that may have been cluttering my opponents hand -- and enchantment removal is a bit more prolific now with decks like enchanter's arsenal); dragon-specific

In a deck with ramp, I don't think the cost difference factors in. So I guess it comes down to versatility (dragon breath) vs power (crucible). Personally, I usually favour versatility, but I'm not really sold on that here.

I think what I want in this slot is something that can be slammed down and forgotten, and something that can really push home a win if not dealt with, which is the crucible. If it's not removed then hooray, it'll probably assist a win, but even if it is removed then it *may* have soaked up some removal that would've otherwise been used on my more important dragons. On the other hand, the dragon's breath, while versatile, just seems a little underwhelming for the "bonus" spot. Sure, it can help stall early, but that will rarely be needed; sure it's removal resistant, but tbh, it's not really that important anyway; and yes, it combos quite well with soul's fire, but I only run a single copy of that. I guess the only real way to find out is to test it, but at this stage I'm going with the crucible.

my build:
Spoiler


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Niv, I've been very happy with Crucible. I run two.
Laying them down with the ramping this deck is capable of is easy most of the time and as you have fodder as I do you can feel free to use your fodder to block and stall as you really don't need them for your dragons dinner.
With just one Crucible out your Predator is a 7/7 haste without snacking. Broodmothers Brood comes out 4/4 without snacking and you are running both, same as most people.
I've ran Breath and it lasted about a week in my build and have never, ever missed it since I pulled it out.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:34 pm 
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with dragon breath you have to think when spend your mana in, how much mana, calculate if it's better to play a card or to attack with your creature...
Crucible of fire is just drop it and enjoy.
Both are good but dragon breath is funnier


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I've liked dragon breath when I've played it, but I think you're probably making the right call with crucible of fire. I think the only case really for dragon breath would have been if you were running the valley rannets or kilnmouth dragon (arguably the igneous pouncers as well, but the "play something 6 or greater" typically takes most of the bite out of the firebreathing part of the card).

Seems like, of your bombs, only maybe flameblast dragon (and potentially dragonlair spider) would really even be debatable between the two. All the others (+hellkite hatchling) would tend to favor the crucible. Even with soul's fire I've more frequently had the +3 from crucible be important than some combination with the firebreathing.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:59 pm 
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I think Dragon Fodder > Tukatongue Thallid because fodder tokens can kill X/2s. If you're set on six slots for chumps, I'd run 4 Fodder and 2 Thallid.

Also, Soul's Fire is absolutely terrible in this deck because it's so easy to interrupt and it does nothing on its own.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:06 pm 
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What Hakeem said other than I run no Thallids.
Soul's Fire never found a place in my deck for the above reason.

Hakeem be praised. :bow:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:15 pm 
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I don't run Thallids either, for the record. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:11 pm 
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I like the thallids. I'm not really bothered about preventing an attack from an x/2 creature, I have plenty of sweepers and other spot removal to deal with those if they become a nuisance anyway. Besides, I like the resilience of the thallids, as they can survive one of my sweeps and I still have something around; they also sort of force me to play conservatively (e.g. instead of getting greedy and devouring all my little guys only to have my dragon removed immediately and leaving me open for attack, I'm limited to only devouring "half" my guys; on the flip-side, if my opponent is tapped out and that 2 extra power from the extra devour target would be enough to take the win, then I will miss out on it, but those occassions are extremely rare). They're are also a 1-drop, making them easier to play in addition to other spells.

On soul's fire, I understand what you're saying, but I still like 1 copy. I used to run more, but I noticed the card is a bit too situational. However, I also think it's being underrated here -- it's definitely not terrible. I don't agree that it's too easily interrupted -- it's instant, so you can cast it in response to removal, rather than the other way around, or you can wait until your opponent is tapped out if you want to be safe about it, or if the opponents deck has no instant removal, then it's safe to play whenever, not to mention, it gives renewed purpose to large dragons that may have been pacified or fettered, etc. in those decks that have that kind of "removal". When many of your dragons can make a 2-3 turn kill, soul's fire provides an additional strike, making a 2-3 turn kill into 1-2 turns. You could think of it sort of like heat shimmer, except it can't be chumped and it can be used as removal, which sounds pretty good to me (the downside would be that it can't abuse etb/ltb effects, but that's hardly relevant in this deck, although it would be nice with broodmate dragon). It can also be used in combo with a chumper and consuming vapors or jund charm if needed. So that's why I keep it as a 1-of.

Thanks for the advice on the crucible/breath dilemma guys.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:59 pm 
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Yeah that seems like a fair assessment on soul's fire. Its niche, and lots of times plays under what you'd want for a 3 mana spell, but it also is sporadically a game winner, and is the only instant in the deck with the potential to deal with big somethings (I'd put it and consume strength about on par - CS being a little better early and soul fire being a decent bit better late).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:03 am 
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N1v, you said it perfectly: Soul's Fire works great as a one-of.

I used all four at first, but removed them all once we had all the promos. But about 2 weeks ago I tossed in one copy, and it almost always ends up being used as a finisher, killing my opponent one turn sooner than I would otherwise.

I would definately recommend adding one to anyone with a spot open or looking to replace a card that seems to be under-performing.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:33 am 
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What if no ones cards are underperforming?
wink wink nudge nudge

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:54 am 
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Devil's decks are always perfect! But ya, on a serious note ;P, as a 1-of I have been thinking of adding soul fire myself. I have Bloodbraid Elf at the 4-spot and while it isn't bad (mainly the haste but the cascade usually works alright) I have been thinking about throwing in a soul fire in it's place (was just thinking about this yesterday actually). Still not 100% sure as I have a solid build with this deck. It isn't winning 80% like AG, but it is pretty good.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:04 pm 
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Niv, I've been very happy with Crucible. I run two.
Laying them down with the ramping this deck is capable of is easy most of the time and as you have fodder as I do you can feel free to use your fodder to block and stall as you really don't need them for your dragons dinner.
With just one Crucible out your Predator is a 7/7 haste without snacking. Broodmothers Brood comes out 4/4 without snacking and you are running both, same as most people.
I've ran Breath and it lasted about a week in my build and have never, ever missed it since I pulled it out.


I found its usefull in 2hg, as it will also trigger on your mates creatures. The haste is quite a gamebreaker.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:14 pm 
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Not at all saying it's a bad card I just found that it interrupted my flow enough to not make it in the final cut.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:41 pm 
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I just wanted to write how bad Breath seems here, as it doesn't do anything to both dragon hard-hitters (Predator, Karrthus), makes little effect for Broodmother and Broodmate, requires you to pay addtional fee for damage unlike Battlediver... and then I thought about Penumbra. :eek:
Definetly should try now, if I only knew how to fit it here. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:00 pm 
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Alas, dragon shadow is missing for no good reason. That being said, breath does give 1 of your dragons haste at some point in time. The problem with running it just for the haste is that you have to have the mana to put it on something that same turn, or you have to have it in the grave already for some reason. Oh and the fact that 4 of your best dragons come pre hasted. The firebreathing is more interesting, but I think dragon fangs is more situationally useful than dragon breath. Breath's firebreathing never won a game where I wasn't just about to win due to lack of flying defense anyways. Fangs has let me trample through some chump blocks that would have prolonged the game forever. I don't run either now, but.......

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:50 pm 
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As this is one of my favorite decks im going to post my build here as I see that it differs from most others. This deck rarely fails me, I don't do much DotP anymore I just do 4FFA with people from here but I just wanna say this deck isn't as bad as some of you point it out to be, in a 4FFA I feel safe drawing this deck since it will most certainly be a win unless my opponents deal with me from the get go, its a little like Eldrazi-deck except with this deck you actually get away with it some times due to the poor reputation of this deck, but imo this is no deck to be taken lightly since it has the ability to really overpower you if you aint careful, also Ive had a lot of success playing this deck in 2HG back when I was doing that and its a really fun deck to play.

"Dragon Roost Sux"
A library for the Dragons 2014 deck (Enter the Dracomancer)
60 Cards. 38 nonlands (19 creatures, 19 spells). 22 Lands (9 7 2; 4 other).

Land
4x Terramorphic Expanse
cost
2x Borderland Ranger
2x Dragonspeaker Shaman
4x Cultivate
2x Jund Charm
4x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Soul's Fire
cost
1x Archwing Dragon
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Ogre Battledriver
1x Spellbreaker Behemoth
3x Crucible of Fire
2x Explosive Vegetation
cost
1x Broodmate Dragon
2x Dragon Broodmother
1x Dragonlair Spider
1x Flameblast Dragon
2x Predator Dragon
1x Volcanic Dragon
cost
1x Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
1x Kilnmouth Dragon
1x Form of the Dragon
cost
1x Hellkite Overlord
cost
1x Savage Twister

Form of the Dragon is just there for the fun of it, I rarely get to play it in a useful manner but when I do, its awesome, but I tend to switch between that and Sneak Attack.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:19 pm 
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Dragon fangs vs dragon Breath? No contest imo, it's fangs. Trample is extremely useful in 1 on 1 and 2hg.

Ok, i popped in to ask anyone if using the land cyclers is worth it. I just don't see it and lately I've seen them used a lot more. For one thing, the deck has enough ramp without it and the telemorphic expanse can make up for what little it lacks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:37 pm 
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I run Valley Rannet because I dont run Borderland Ranger. Gives me a 2 drop that lets me curve better, and 6 power to swing with that doesnt die to jund charm later on. But I also run Dragonspeaker Shaman which means my mana base is heavily shifted towards mountains, if I wasnt running the shaman, I dont think the mana cycler would be needed.


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