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Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)
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Author:  Arctic [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

My take on this flavour (premium btw):

9 x Plains
10 x Swamp
1 x Orzhov Guildgate
4 x Radiant Fountain

3 x Elixir of Immortality

3 x Ajani's Pridemate
3 x Wall of Omens
3 x Reprisal
2 x Lone Missionary
4 x Child of Night
2 x Vizkopa Guildmage

2 x Mentor of the Meek
2 x Tribute to Hunger

2 x Rhox Faithmender
3 x Angelic Accord

1 x Baneslayer Angel
2 x Meditation Puzzle
2 x Sanguine Bond

2 x Covenant of Blood


First, huge disclaimer: I don't have the whole card pool which explains some of the bizarre card numbers (I need more Lone Missionaries obviously).

Some of the changes:
Reprisal over Ulcerate - with 4/4 Angels and 0/4 Walls, the only things that can really become problematic are things with 4 or greater power. It's cheap, instant removal of these things.

No Ordeal of Heliod - I need things that want to attack to get use of this. Great combo with Pridemate, but most of the other things in the deck aren't really attacking much outside the really early game. I put Meditation Puzzle in its place, which should always be "Deal 8 damage to target player and gain 8 life," since you should never unload it without Vizkopa or Sanguine Bond around. Gets really silly with Faithmenders out, and is instant speed, so you can end-phase Convoke it out before your turn for essentially no cost.

Elixir of Immortality is another instant-speed way to engage the burn off Vizkopa and Sanguine, or get an Angel if you really want. They're so cheap.

Lastly, yeah, Covenant of Blood is weird. Might kick it out, but also becomes a solid finisher once you're setup with Vizkopa/Sanguine, it's kind like Corrupt. It's terrible removal in a pinch as well.

But as mentioned, I don't have all the cards, so changes will come as I get my final Missionaries and Guildmage, among other things. I like it though, sometimes I don't even swing in with anything. Needs to get Angelic Accord/Sanguine/Vizkopa to win, and just unload the saved up healing after that.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Please do not play Meditation Puzzle in any deck ever. Please.

Author:  Arctic [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Hey man, don't knock it until you try it! But more importantly, what would you swap? Fits into the deck and has gotten surprising mileage thus far. Yeah, I thought I'd never put it in, pure lifegain cards really? But hey, this deck can do silly things with it.

Author:  minddrifter [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

I've been wanting to make a similar deck for a while now too Arctic. I don't know what I might do differently just yet but I can't wait to see what happens, lol.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Lower the curve and play Divine Verdict. I also wouldn't play a full set of Radiant Fountains in a two-color deck; I'd play two at most, and I'm not sure I'd play any. Color consistency is just too important and two life just isn't worth it, IMO.

Author:  minddrifter [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Hakeem928 wrote:
Lower the curve and play Divine Verdict. I also wouldn't play a full set of Radiant Fountains in a two-color deck; I'd play two at most, and I'm not sure I'd play any. Color consistency is just too important and two life just isn't worth it, IMO.

I agree I wouldn't play 4, but I would probably play at least 1 and maybe 2. It isn't just the 2 life gain, but all the stuff that it can trigger.

Author:  Arctic [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

There's only two cards that need two each of W/B (Baneslayer and Sanguine respectively, which is why I tilt towards B). The Fountains are a free Angel with Accord and Faithmender/Child of Night. I haven't found myself wishing a Fountain was ever a Swamp or Plains; I only play them if I desperately need to hit my curve with them, otherwise I'll hold until they can turn into Angels/damage.

Divine Verdict is worth considering, it fits the style of this deck being more "wait and see" and rarely aggressive. I'll have to think about whether I've got too many "finishers" in the form of Puzzles and Elixirs.

First I need to finish getting the cards I want though and see what I remove to fit them in.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Nebula wrote:
Hakeem928 wrote:
Lower the curve and play Divine Verdict. I also wouldn't play a full set of Radiant Fountains in a two-color deck; I'd play two at most, and I'm not sure I'd play any. Color consistency is just too important and two life just isn't worth it, IMO.

I agree I wouldn't play 4, but I would probably play at least 1 and maybe 2. It isn't just the 2 life gain, but all the stuff that it can trigger.


I get that and I would maybe play a couple to start, but really what are you getting from this thing?

1) A +1/+1 counter on your Pridemate(s)
2) A three-mana drain two life from Vizkopa Guildmage
3) Trigger Sanguine Bond and drain two life
4) A token from Angelic Accord if you attack with Child of Night, or if you have a Faithmender in play (both of these scenarios are three-card combos, btw).

Outside of those situations, you get a land that only taps for colorless mana and you gain two life. Again, I'd probably fiddle with it, but my gut says it isn't worth the slot.

Author:  mobiuschickenstrips [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Hakeem doesn't know how the B/W lifegain works yet. Save the sideline analysis until you get in this son. There's no reason to bust out Vizkopa/Accord/Sanguine shenanigans and leave Fountains on the sidelines.

That being said, Meditation Puzzle isn't even an egregious inclusion despite how it looks on the surface. I choose not to run it. I think of it this way:

Meditation Puzzle: 2015 B/W Lifegain Decks
Exsanguinate: 2013 Obedient Dead

Author:  mobiuschickenstrips [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Hakeem, you just listed 4 deck synergies from a Land, let me repeat that, A LAND, with it's only drawback being that it only produces colorless mana, in a deck that does not have terribly restrictive mana requirements.

Think about that for .3 seconds using your brain and not your gut.

Also, when you mention 3-card combos, they aren't really combos, they're cards that are in the build no matter if there's a Fountain or not. It's not always a 2 life/drain scenario. You can activate Guildmage multiple times mana permitting, and of course Faithmender.

<3

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

I get the synergies, I listed them; I would not run four initially. Is there a chance that they will overperform? Sure, but I can just see opening hands with a couple of these that I have to toss because of it. I guess the free mulligan helps a bit, but I still don't like the idea.

Author:  mobiuschickenstrips [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

No, the way you type indicates you don't get it. Look, any Magic player worth anything would be all about a spell providing that much synergy with their deck. You're getting all that from a LAND with minimal drawback.

Now if you're an idiot and refuse to curve out because you want to hold on to a Fountain, that's one thing. But you don't have to hold on to this.

Unlike the theory crowd, I have played with the deck quite a bit (not Arctic's, mine) and I can tell you it's not forcing mulligans at a rate Chicken Littles would have you believe. If I were to assign a percentage to it, from my recollection, I'm sure after 1000 games that number would begin with a decimal point.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

I certainly wouldn't skip a land drop to hold onto it for later, and nowhere did I say that I would. I'm being skeptical of the card, while fully-aware that I may be wrong about it.

That cool, BRUH?

Author:  megamaster125 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Who said anything about skipping a land drop?

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Now if you're an idiot and refuse to curve out because you want to hold on to a Fountain, that's one thing. But you don't have to hold on to this.

Author:  mobiuschickenstrips [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Well, some folks think that a Land that only taps for colorless will jack up your curve enough that it's probably the same as missing a land drop.

Author:  megamaster125 [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Hakeem928 wrote:
Now if you're an idiot and refuse to curve out because you want to hold on to a Fountain, that's one thing. But you don't have to hold on to this.


Given the word "idiot" I don't think he was saying that skipping a land drop was a good strategy.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

I understand that; it was a jab at me.

Author:  minddrifter [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

mobius, how many fountains are you running? All 4? I was thinking of running 2 fountains along with 2 gates, but maybe all 4 fountains ends up working just fine?

Author:  Arctic [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Orzhov (Black/White)

Looks like he's 4 and 4. I'd cut Gates before Fountains if you found yourself running into problems.

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