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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:11 am 
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rockshard wrote:
You pretty much curve out at 3 so you might as well -4 Cultivate +4 land and your deck stands to benefit. Not to mention if you do this it would make Elvish Pioneer better.

Good point, though 23 lands seems like a lot to me...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:11 am 
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I think the issue with the Elvish Pioneer is, while it is an excellent card to get in an opening hand, late game it might as well just be a blank card. Unless your drawing land hand over fist (and with 19 I can't imagine that happens all that often) I just can't see it being anything but a dead draw. I run the guy in 26 land decks and his ability still fizzles a lot of the time for me. If nothing else I certainly can't recommend running all four.

Selesnya Evangel is very nice to have around not because it's particularly explosive in power but because it's consistently helping you out. If you get hit by a sweeper mid-game a Evangel will help put you on your feet. If you need to stall it effectively allows you to trade tokens indefinitely without losing any ground (block with token, tap token with Evangel's ability, you just survived a turn). Really it's not that Selesnya Evangel is great just that you'll generally want something that can generate tokens - if you find yourself with mana to spare you could try Jade Mage instead - same benefits really. I just figured Selesnya Evangel fit your mana a little better.

At the very least I would whole-heatedly recommend getting the Triplicate Spirits even if you do nothing else - it's an exceptionally good card for this sort of deck. I'd probably recommend dropping the Mausoleum Guard for two of them as Spirits does much the same job (only better) alongside two of something else - probably two Pioneers.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:21 am 
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rockshard wrote:
You pretty much curve out at 3 so you might as well -4 Cultivate +4 land and your deck stands to benefit. Not to mention if you do this it would make Elvish Pioneer better.

Good point, though 23 lands seems like a lot to me...


This is a moot point. Cultivate merely brings you lands, so it is essentially no different from running extra land. The difference is that 23 land (as opposed to 19 land and 4 Cultivate) brings more consistency to your deck and frees up your third turn to play something else.

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* = a game in which the opponent had Battle Mastery. My non-premium decks:
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"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:25 am 
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rockshard wrote:
rockshard wrote:
You pretty much curve out at 3 so you might as well -4 Cultivate +4 land and your deck stands to benefit. Not to mention if you do this it would make Elvish Pioneer better.

Good point, though 23 lands seems like a lot to me...


This is a moot point. Cultivate merely brings you lands, so it is essentially no different from running extra land. The difference is that 23 land (as opposed to 19 land and 4 Cultivate) brings more consistency to your deck and frees up your third turn to play something else.


Fair enough. How about this then,
-4 Cultivate/+4 Triplicate Spirits
-2 Mausoleum Guard/+2 Selesnya Evangel
-1 Elvish Pioneer/+1 Plains
-1 Spire Tracer/+1 Forest

Or do I want all 4 Selesnya Evangels, and if that's the case and if i'm not changing any other land, then what would be the next thing taken out.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:37 am 
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I know that some people on this board don't seem to follow this rule, but I try to never run fewer than the maximum amount of a card unless there is a really good reason for it.

If you cut one Elvish Pioneer it is unintelligible not to cut them all. Same with adding 2 Evangels.

It would be a different story if your deck already had enough creatures that cost 2, so you didn't want to clog up the 2-mana slot with too many Evangels. But that's not the case here--before adding the Evangels your only 2-drop was Raise the Alarm. You could have 4 Raise the Alarm and 4 Evangels for a total of eight, and that would give you a reasonable chance of having one of them on turn 2 of each game.

Only once you have run the max 4 Evangels and decided you don't like them, then consider taking out all 4.

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"Meatgrinder" 6W 1L
"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
"Species Horror" 4W 1L / (new) 4W 1L --- "History Channel" *3W 1L


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:41 am 
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rockshard wrote:
I know that some people on this board don't seem to follow this rule, but I try to never run fewer than the maximum amount of a card unless there is a really good reason for it.

If you cut one Elvish Pioneer it is unintelligible not to cut them all. Same with adding 2 Evangels.

It would be a different story if your deck already had enough creatures that cost 2, so you didn't want to clog up the 2-mana slot with too many Evangels. But that's not the case here--before adding the Evangels your only 2-drop was Raise the Alarm.


So what you are saying is cut the remaining 3 Elvish Pioneers to fit more mana and the 2 remaining Selesnya Evangels, but wasn't the point of dropping the Cultivates to improve upon Elvish Pioneer?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:49 am 
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rockshard wrote:
I know that some people on this board don't seem to follow this rule, but I try to never run fewer than the maximum amount of a card unless there is a really good reason for it.

If you cut one Elvish Pioneer it is unintelligible not to cut them all. Same with adding 2 Evangels.

It would be a different story if your deck already had enough creatures that cost 2, so you didn't want to clog up the 2-mana slot with too many Evangels. But that's not the case here--before adding the Evangels your only 2-drop was Raise the Alarm.


So what you are saying is cut the remaining 3 Elvish Pioneers to fit more mana and the 2 remaining Selesnya Evangels, but wasn't the point of dropping the Cultivates to improve upon Elvish Pioneer?

What I'm saying is that basically you must decide between 4 Elvish Pioneer or 0 Elvish Pioneer, and that you must decide between 4 Selesnya Evangel or 0 Selesnya Evangel.

Starting hand is 7 cards which is a rather small sample of the deck and even through an entire game you won't see half your deck most of the time. So it is up to you to decide which cards you want to draw (i.e. the cards in your deck in max quantities) and which cards you don't. (the cards not in your deck at all)

As for Cultivate, I suggested cutting it anyway. The fact that doing so makes Elvish Pioneer better was merely a bonus. By no means do you have to keep the Elvish Pioneer in the deck. (in fact it is probably better to take him out)

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* = a game in which the opponent had Battle Mastery. My non-premium decks:
"Meatgrinder" 6W 1L
"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
"Species Horror" 4W 1L / (new) 4W 1L --- "History Channel" *3W 1L


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:52 am 
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Quote:
What I'm saying is that basically you must decide between 4 Elvish Pioneer or 0 Elvish Pioneer, and that you must decide between 4 Selesnya Evangel or 0 Selesnya Evangel.

Starting hand is 7 cards which is a rather small sample of the deck and even through an entire game you won't see half your deck most of the time. So it is up to you to decide which cards you want to draw (i.e. the cards in your deck in max quantities) and which cards you don't. (the cards not in your deck at all)

As for Cultivate, I suggested cutting it anyway. The fact that doing so makes Elvish Pioneer better was merely a bonus. By no means do you have to keep the Elvish Pioneer in the deck. (in fact it is probably better to take him out)


Alright, makes sense, i'll make some changes and see how it goes. I appreciate your suggestions and thank you for being patient with me, I am by no means well versed in putting a deck together so every piece of advice helps.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:00 am 
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Welp, Baneslayer got me. Again. And the opponent had Safe Passage so not even Inspired Charge would have did the trick. (even if he didn't gain massive amounts of life by putting Marked by Honor on the Baneslayer, and Titanic Growth.)

I drew all 3 Phantom General that game. So now it looks like they have to go, but to replace them but with what? Reprisal? Divine Verdict? The deck has Banisher Priest already. Reclamation Sage and Seraph of the Masses are also options. Mentor of the Meek... I don't think that would have helped much!

edit: 2-0 so far with the new list (-3 phantom general, +3 reprisal)

edit: 3-0
Jade Mage is kinda lame. So is winning with a bunch of 1/1 tokens. If I don't use a splashy card to win (such as Ascension or Inspired Charge) then what's the point?

edit: 4-1
bad starting hand / mulligans


Attachments:
File comment: why yes that is a Titanic Growth in my pocket
_20140804_055350.JPG
_20140804_055350.JPG [ 97.07 KiB | Viewed 5544 times ]

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* = a game in which the opponent had Battle Mastery. My non-premium decks:
"Meatgrinder" 6W 1L
"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
"Species Horror" 4W 1L / (new) 4W 1L --- "History Channel" *3W 1L


Last edited by rockshard on Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:18 am 
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Give my deck a shot; it's not a token deck, but a white weenie deck with a green splash.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:30 am 
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I don't have premiums so i'd have to sub the paragons, squadron hawk, and hall of triumph

Hawks can easily be visionary, Jade Mage, and/or more Pegasus.
paragons can be +1 Banisher, +1 Triplicate, +2 inspired charge

actually I just realized something. I could cut jade mage? I havent been using its ability much. I notice you don't run it at all so the idea only now occurs to me to cut it from mine.

edit: currently 1-0 with an all-new build

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* = a game in which the opponent had Battle Mastery. My non-premium decks:
"Meatgrinder" 6W 1L
"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
"Species Horror" 4W 1L / (new) 4W 1L --- "History Channel" *3W 1L


Last edited by rockshard on Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:58 am 
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I keep forgetting about premiums, my apologies. The Hawks and Paragons are core to the deck, it wouldn't be the same without them.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:12 am 
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rockshard wrote:
Good point, though 23 lands seems like a lot to me...


This is a moot point. Cultivate merely brings you lands, so it is essentially no different from running extra land. The difference is that 23 land (as opposed to 19 land and 4 Cultivate) brings more consistency to your deck and frees up your third turn to play something else.


Fair enough. How about this then,
-4 Cultivate/+4 Triplicate Spirits
-2 Mausoleum Guard/+2 Selesnya Evangel
-1 Elvish Pioneer/+1 Plains
-1 Spire Tracer/+1 Forest

Or do I want all 4 Selesnya Evangels, and if that's the case and if i'm not changing any other land, then what would be the next thing taken out.

I have to agree with some others, the Pioneers are not really helping all that much. I mean T1 2 lands is nice and all, but in this deck doesn't seem to be "needed" and as others mentioned, Pioneer is basically a dead draw later on. I'd drop the 3 other Pioneers, add 2 more lands and maybe another Evangel.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:53 pm 
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rockshard wrote:
I don't have premiums so i'd have to sub the paragons, squadron hawk, and hall of triumph

Hawks can easily be visionary, Jade Mage, and/or more Pegasus.
paragons can be +1 Banisher, +1 Triplicate, +2 inspired charge

actually I just realized something. I could cut jade mage? I havent been using its ability much. I notice you don't run it at all so the idea only now occurs to me to cut it from mine.


You asked about Jade Mage.
First I want to refer to your all or none approach.
Usually, a certain card in a deck have diminishing marginal utility, the more you play of a card, the less utility the extra copy will bring you. Usually it comes from the odd to draw more than one from the card, but sometimes it comes from other reasons. For example, in my golgari I play 1-of reclamation sage because I have many ways to tutor him, revive him and reuse his etb - but I really don't need an extra copy.
lord of the unreal in MM have DMU with a big derivative, but the 4th copy is still worth including. You surely won't run 30 if you could, but something like 6-7 would be optimal.
Jade Mage ability is indeed underwhelming, paying 3 mana for 1/1 is subpar, and you practically use his ability when you have nothing else to do. I think 2 mana is usually the 'market' price for a 1/1 with no card disadvantage. Since it is not terrible to have this option, and I need exactly one Mage to have this option, I personally use 1-of in a build with no phantom generals. 2-of in a build with them. Non premium - if I had premiums, I wouldn't play them.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Well, since I'm on a deck posting spree atm, I don't think I posted this here yet.

Double Trouble

Creatures - 24
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Selesnya Evangel
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Mentor of the Meek
3 Banisher Priest
4 Attended Knight
3 Paragon of New Dawns
3 Phantom General

Other Spells - 12
4 Raise the Alram
2 Hall of Triumph
2 Beastmaster Ascension
2 Doubling Season
2 Triplicate Spirits

Land -24
13 Plains
7 Forest
4 Selesnya Guildgate


It's basically a white deck splashing green for Ascension. I like being able to test our decks and have the AI use our build. Granted, they play horribly sometimes, especially with my Wall of Denial deck and this deck. But even with the AI playing blatantly bad, this deck can still be a huge pain in the butt to deal with.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:01 pm 
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I took both Garren and rockshards advice and its worked well for me. Evangel has saved me more than once. Overall i'm pretty satisfied with the changes.
New decklist:
Tokens (no premiums)
Creatures:
x1 Brimaz, King of Orestos
x2 Mentor of the Meek
x2 Banisher Priest
x3 Attended Knight
x3 Seraph of the Masses
x4 Spire Tracer
x2 Scion of the Wild
x4 Selesnya Evangel

Sorcery
:
x2 Triplicate Spirits
x4 Prey Upon

Instant
:
x4 Raise the Alarm
x4 Titanic Growth

Enchantment
:
x2 Beastmaster Ascension

Land:
x13 Plains
x10 Forest

I neglected to mention that I do have the premium cards, though I didn't really like the majority of them for this deck. Thank you guys for the help, I greatly appreciate it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Looks good man! I'll give ya some thanks too for getting me to run Seraph of the Masses again. Works a lot better then I expected it too - Convoke and Evasion just make it such a solid card in a mass token deck.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:53 pm 
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Just beat a guy playing Selesnya with Vengevine...

I ended up beating him due to 4 Planar Cleansings with a 5th in hand, but the Vengevine worked great in the deck. I'd suggest giving it a try!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:32 pm 
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3-0 so far with this brand new build

I wasn't sure whether to post it here or on the GWB thread. To be honest I was going to post it there, until I made the deck and noticed the game labels it as a GW deck. (no black mana symbol) Figures, since there are no black spells in it.

Spiritually, this is a GW deck anyway. It is my WG token deck, with Spider Spawning added, and the rest flowed from there. No more Raise the Alarm, since its not a creature card.

"Spider Scion" (no premiums)
8 Plains
8 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Traveler's Amulet
-
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Selesnya Evangel
4 Attended Knight
2 Elder of Laurels
2 Scion of the Wild
3 Banisher Priest
3 Phantom General
1 Baneslayer Angel
-
3 Reprisal
3 Spider Spawning
2 Beastmaster Ascension

edit: 5-0

I just played against an obnoxious opponent.
He has a Cloudfin Raptor (a 1/2) and a Mentor of the Meek.
I'm holding a Banisher Priest, not sure which to use it on.
Opponent casts Baneslayer. (Oh hell no!) Cloudfin is a 2/3 now.
I cast Banisher targeting Baneslayer.
Of course, opponent casts Void Snare on the Banisher. Cloudfin now a 3/4.
But, in the same turn, he casts TIME WARP. How rude!!
In the end he takes me down to 5 life, before I cast Spider Spawning producing about 4 or 5 tokens.

Later I was sitting behind more spiders and 2 Phantom Generals.
Opponent casts Planar Cleansing.
I finally drop my Swamp (surprise!!) and flashback Spider Spawning.
Banisher Priest still in my hand. :3

edit: 6-0
edit: 8-0
funny games. First time I've seen Furor of the Bitten played on an Inferno Titan.

edit: 9-1
edit: 10-1

edit: *12-1
edit: *14-1

edit: *16-2
Lost to a controlling blue/red deck. I didn't get a great hand but the opponents Anger of the God did not help. He playedpretty much nothing the whole game except two Guttersnipes and just pinged me to death. I had a Reprisal sitting dead in my hand the whole game. Whasts funny is that the Satyr Wayfinder i cast at tyhe start of the game turned up the other two Reprisals in my deck. Yeesh.

edit: *19-2
edit: *20-2

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* = a game in which the opponent had Battle Mastery. My non-premium decks:
"Meatgrinder" 6W 1L
"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
"Species Horror" 4W 1L / (new) 4W 1L --- "History Channel" *3W 1L


Last edited by rockshard on Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:22 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:20 pm 
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I just played the cheesiest opponent ever.
my starting hand was like, Attended Knight, Spider Spawning, 5 mana sources.
Kept, since i didn't want to mull to 6.

Opponent gets three 1/1's out, then out of nowhere casts 3 copies of Triplicate Spirits.
I'm stuck with Spider Spawning in my hand and no creatures in my graveyard.
I topdeck Satyr Wayfinder.
Then he attacks with everything. I block the ground creatures and hope my Spider Spawning next turn will pull through.

Before damage, opponent casts Inspired Charge.


Attachments:
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_20140810_231900.JPG [ 108.34 KiB | Viewed 5257 times ]

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* = a game in which the opponent had Battle Mastery. My non-premium decks:
"Meatgrinder" 6W 1L
"Spider Scion" (old) *23W 3L --- "Spider Scion" (new) 9W 2L
"Species Horror" 4W 1L / (new) 4W 1L --- "History Channel" *3W 1L
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