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Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)
https://nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4948
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Author:  DJ0045 [ Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

So here's my take on the unearth evolve rockslide deck concept.

[manapie 90 -w u -b r g][/manapie]

Rockslide Ogre

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (26 :creature: , 10 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Cloudfin Raptor0/1
■■■■
Shock
Cost 9 cards
■■■
Hellspark Elemental3/1
■■■
Armillary Sphere
■■■
Ground Assault
Cost 7 cards
■■■■
Brackwater Elemental4/4
■■■
Rockslide Elemental1/1
Cost 5 cards
■■
Masked Admirers3/2
■■
Ogre Battledriver3/3
Vengevine4/3
Cost 7 cards
■■
Arbor Colossus6/6
■■■
Garruk's Packleader4/4
■■
Mycoloth4/4
Land24 cards
■■
Crumbling Necropolis
■■■
Frontier Bivouac
■■■
Jungle Shrine
■■
Savage Lands
8
Forest
4
Island
4
Mountain


I've added green for even more triggers. Very fun to play, very effective.

Some thoughts: almost every card triggers Packleader. Between him, the evolves, the Rockslide Elemental this deck has synergy, staying power, a great draw engine, all the things basically. Even good removal.

Author:  babassoonist [ Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

okay, why armillary sphere over cultivate? late night over there?

Author:  DJ0045 [ Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

This is more about mana efficiency that anything else. Cultivate is the better card, but it costs more. The sphere does what this deck needs: ensure we have the double red or green we need on turn 4 or 5. And it does it without overloading the 3 CMC slot, so that we stand a good chance of playing a card every turn. Moreover, this deck doesn't need to ramp, but it does need to mana fix. It tops out at 5 CMC.

Basically, I had a hole at 2 CMC, and I needed mana fixing = sphere gets the job.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

But Sphere costs four and doesn't ramp.

Author:  Auunj [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

DJ0045 wrote:
So here's my take on the unearth evolve rockslide deck concept.

[manapie 90 -w u -b r g][/manapie]

Rockslide Ogre

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (26 :creature: , 10 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Cloudfin Raptor0/1
■■■■
Shock
Cost 9 cards
■■■
Hellspark Elemental3/1
■■■
Armillary Sphere
■■■
Ground Assault
Cost 7 cards
■■■■
Brackwater Elemental4/4
■■■
Rockslide Elemental1/1
Cost 5 cards
■■
Masked Admirers3/2
■■
Ogre Battledriver3/3
Vengevine4/3
Cost 7 cards
■■
Arbor Colossus6/6
■■■
Garruk's Packleader4/4
■■
Mycoloth4/4
Land24 cards
■■
Crumbling Necropolis
■■■
Frontier Bivouac
■■■
Jungle Shrine
■■
Savage Lands
8
Forest
4
Island
4
Mountain


I've added green for even more triggers. Very fun to play, very effective.

Some thoughts: almost every card triggers Packleader. Between him, the evolves, the Rockslide Elemental this deck has synergy, staying power, a great draw engine, all the things basically. Even good removal.


Wouldn't adding a trample effect upgrade the deck? With a huge Rockslide Elemental or Mycoloth it would be easier to get damage through.

Author:  HenWen [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

Personally I don't see the point of Rockslide here. It doesn't benefit from unearth - the 2nd use of a creature doesn't "go to the graveyard" since it is exiled. If you had more token production, maybe. You already have mycoloth, ogre battledriver and garruk's packleader - put in a rabblemaster and you get 3/1 tokens every turn if you stack your triggers right. Or swap armillary sphere and rockslide for cultivate and elvish visionary. This will make it much easier to trigger the admirers and vengevine, and ramp you better later on.

Other than that I would suggest maybe a singleton hunter's prowess to refill your hand.

Author:  djAMPnz [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

HenWen wrote:
Personally I don't see the point of Rockslide here. It doesn't benefit from unearth - the 2nd use of a creature doesn't "go to the graveyard" since it is exiled. If you had more token production, maybe. You already have mycoloth, ogre battledriver and garruk's packleader - put in a rabblemaster and you get 3/1 tokens every turn if you stack your triggers right. Or swap armillary sphere and rockslide for cultivate and elvish visionary. This will make it much easier to trigger the admirers and vengevine, and ramp you better later on.

Other than that I would suggest maybe a singleton hunter's prowess to refill your hand.

I was thinking the same thing. And because of Rockslide's inclusion in this deck I thought unearth might be working wrong in DotP and having the creature die before exiling it.

Author:  C Eliza [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

Overall cool deck DJ0045. Am going to try this deck out later in the evening. From first glance, would make the following changes.

As your list stands you have a good number of Forests, and '9' two cost mana and '7' three cost mana spells. It would be better IMO to swap the Armillary Sphere for Cultivate, I find Armillary Spear too slow (especially early on in the game it will take about two turns for you to fully carry this out), and lingering it for a few turns leaves it open to destruction (I personally have destroyed a good number of these). Just make sure your opening hand is reasonable.

I second with the other post by HenWen on trading out Rockslide Elemental with the other cards suggested.
Or just keep one, but more than one weakens the deck.

Author:  babassoonist [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

why would you destroy something as useless as armillry sphere....

Author:  DJ0045 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

Armillary sphere isn't 4 CMC it's 2+2. That has an effect on its timing. Amongst other things it gives me the option to play my turn 3 as normal. And then if I don't draw my turn 4 land I crack and have enough mana for a turn two.

In this deck, that could be

2 sphere, 3 rockslide, 4 Hellspark + Crack, 5 ? Which I've actually seen and done many times.

Cultivate is the better card, it's also a different turn play. Sphere is a different CMC card, I can play it on turn 2, it fixes my mana for all requirements except GGG, that's enough for me. Oh and btw, what happens when you don't get your G to cast cultivate? Do you just lose those games?

Strategy responses on a different post. Because this debate is silly and expected to continue, lol.

Author:  C Eliza [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

why would you destroy something as useless as armillry sphere....



Fell over laughing when I read this. Thank you. :)

It just happens. Especially if Armillary Sphere sits out for one too many turns, and if I can will take it out. Unfortunately, some decks rely on this card for land drawing advantage. Seen this with my own eyes (and puts a smile on my face), players retrieving this card from their graveyards with Sanctum Gargoyle.

Author:  DJ0045 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

Now, let's talk about rockslide elemental's inclusion. I like it, here's why. One trigger from unearth is sufficient IMO, and it's automatic. It sucks that the second doesn't work, but that's okay. It creates a permanent card that demands removal, and acts as pseudo protection for all of your other cards. Your opponent has to remove it first, or face an ever growing problem, and that's great in this deck, because this deck can go extremely wide, if and when it gets going.

That's the logic for inclusion, IMO. The logic for exclusion is roughly - non perfect synergy, dies to shock, weak to bounce, etc...

I'm totally open to alternate suggestions. Especially for a 2 CMC card that would switch out the spheres and replace them with cultivates.

E.g. + 3 Cultivate, -3 Sphere, +3 2 CMC creature (with some synergy please), -3 Rockslide Elementals

(I like the idea of elvish visionary, btw, thanks HenWen)

Edit: Another, albeit weak option would be Battering Krasis, which I do not like much, but also benefits from at least one activation of unearth Hellspark, and probably both from Brackwater. Could actually be pretty decent - I may give it a shot. (Nope, Krasis still sucked - Rockslide was the better card)

Author:  babassoonist [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

I woud rather save my removal for important cards, destroying sphere is the same as countering cultivate, sure sometimes you screw them but useually you just slow them a bit and spent a counter (or removal in this case)

Author:  DJ0045 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

As for trample, this deck runs U. Forget Trample, we want artful dodge for evasion.

Also, why do I keep forgetting about that damn card? Wtf, lol.

Anyway, I wouldn't put it in this deck. At this time, I don't think the deck needs it. But I'm going to mess with the deck later today.

Author:  DJ0045 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

In defense of Sphere:

One thing you are all missing is the value of sphere in an opening hand, over Cultivate.

Cultivate costs 3 and requires green mana. Even if you have it in your opening hand, you would want to see 2 lands at least and ideally one source of green mana. Even better would be three lands with at least one source of green mana. Those aren't steep requirements, but they are requirements, otherwise Cultivate is a dead card - and you are a dead player.

Sphere on the other hand is playable with just two lands of any color. In fact 2 lands + sphere, should be thought of as 4 lands for the sake of determining whether the hand is playable. If you never need to play the sphere, good for you, but if you do, you can make the proper calculation, and rapidly figure out how to play out your cards.

Basically, Sphere gives you a much larger variety of obviously acceptable starting hands. It will improve the consistency (from a mana perspective) of your deck, beyond the capabilities of Cultivate, because any two lands can activate it. You are in fact getting something for that 1 extra mana cost - less mulligans.

This is ever more important the more colors your deck contains. At three colors, probably cultivate is still better. By 4 or 5, I'd recommend Sphere by a mile.

Sure trilands make this easier, but bottomline Sphere has its place in some decks. You shouldn't completely discount the card.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

Sphere costs four mana. That's a big deal. Saying you can keep sketchy hands "because Sphere" just means that you're willing to take your first three turns off without the upside of being able hit a five-drop on the fourth turn (a la Cultivate).

Whenever my opponent plays T2 Sphere, T3 crack Sphere, I tend to win.

Author:  DJ0045 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

I don't doubt that, but I've never been your opponent.

Also, why call the hands sketchy. A 2 land hand could easily have all the tools I'd want and a sphere that confirms I've got tons of good plays to make. It's a hand I don't want, but can keep. Also what am I ramping to in a deck that tops out at 5CMC? This deck doesn't need quick mana, it needs consistent mana. Predictable mana.

Btw, have you never lost or beaten someone who had mana fixing issues? Never lost because you couldn't get that green for cultivate? You play all the time, you can't tell me it's never happened.

Author:  DJ0045 [ Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

Also, why assume the stupid play of accepting a hand that has no plays until T4. Let's assume you're right, and I actually had to crack on T3. That means I didn't have a 3rd land. How would I have played cultivate? Sure you'd win, I'm mana screwed. Congrats! Way to go! Cheers!

No offense, but think about it a bit, and you might see some logic here. I'm not claiming sphere is the better card, but I am claiming it's not a terrible card. There are some in our current list, sphere isn't one of them.

Edit: and sphere does not cost 4 mana, it costs 2 mana, 2 separate times.

Author:  Hakeem928 [ Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

2x2=4

If you don't crack your Sphere early then you didn't need it and should've done something else on T2. Cultivate ramps you for one less net mana and it's in your colors, I don't see how you can pick Sphere in any green list.

Also, unless you are playing 4 or 5 colors in your deck then I'd argue Traveler's Amulet is a better mana-fixing option because it costs half as much. I also tend to beat Traveler's Amulet decks. Cultivate decks not so much. :)

Author:  DJ0045 [ Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Magic 2015 - Temur (Red/Blue/Green)

Okay man.

Regardless of all of that, the hole in this deck for mana fixing is at 2 CMC. The ideal start goes

1. Cloudfin Raptor
2. ?
3. Rockslide Elemental

If I was holding both cards, I might not play Hellspark, even if I had it in hand, so you know... Sphere. I would definitely not cultivate if rockslide were in hand.

Edit: and btw, that is a start that many decks would beat. I'm not sitting over here trying to suggest this is the be all end all baddest ass deck in the world. It's a very cool combo deck based on somebody else's build. Sphere is the right mana fixer for it. Their deck contained Rockslide, so my deck contains Rockslide - and therefor no cultivate.

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