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 Post subject: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:56 pm 
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(Prob) suboptimal off the dome 1st draft of Simic (technically Temur) Ramp.

V1.5
2 x Heaven // Earth
2 x Walking Ballista
2 x Sylvan Advocate
1 x Duskwatch Recruiter
4 x Druid of the Cowl
3 x Weaver of Currents
1 x Rhonas the Indomitable
2 x Tireless Tracker
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 x Kiora, Master of the Depths
4 x Explosive Vegitation
1 x Nissa, Vital Force
2 x Monstrous Onslaught
2 x Rishkar's Expertise
2 x Gaea's Revenge
2 x Plated Crusher
2 x Sandwurm Convergence
1 x Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger

10 x Forest
6 x Island
2 x Mountain
2 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Lumbering Falls
2 x Wandering Fumarole


V1


Not sure about including red, but I wanted heaven to deal with flyers early to mid (unless I can get a christmasland T5 Sandwurms down or T5 Ulamog exiles, I want an answer to flyers before they kill me). Since playing heaven, I figured may be worth it to splash a bit of red to clear ground clutter later game when my fatties are out. Maybe not worth diluting the manabase, especially since Onslaught can effectively sweep clutter while leaving my doods alive (maybe redundant). Will see.

A few things that may deserve consideration: Pull from Tomorrow (feels redundant with Rishkars already in), Open into Wonder, Deathcap Cultivator (didn't want to rely on too many fragile dorks, so didn't make the cut in favor of Vegitations - but 2 drops seem dangerously low now), Bounty of the Luxa (curious about it). I'm sure there are other things deserving consideration too. Comments/criticisms/your lists welcome and appreciated.

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Last edited by The Secret of TIMH on Sun May 07, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:30 pm 
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I don't want to give it away yet, as this might get featured on the podcast, but small hint: IMO you should strongly consider the new sphinxes in this deck (or at least the hard to kill one), and always run Bristling Hydra. I guess that's kind of a different deck though, less full blown ramp, more midrange. I definitely think it's a good idea though. I also think you should run the new can't be countered 4/3 in green. That's a whole lot of efficient, hard to kill creatures, and it's going to be pretty good IMO. I'm not sure you can get away with a total lack of removal, outside of onslaught (which you are totally right to run).

I think, add 3 nature's way. Also, verdurous gear hulk should be in here.

Running Heaven is pretty smart here, though, so maybe don't run the flier... I just think the deck will be better with them than without.


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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Walking Ballista should be in too. I know this isn't the final version, and will prob have changes already by the time we get the cards.

Heaven is removal for the creatures that give this type of deck problems. Earth is backup ground control if things go sideways. Sandwurms are pseudo removal for flyers - that's already a fair amount. Don't think the deck really needs much more than that. Been playing NHs monogreen Stompy. It runs 2 WBs, 3 onslaughts, and that's it for removal (iirc). Deck isn't T1, but it's formidable. I'm thinking with the improvements to air control (Heaven, sandwurms), plus ability to ramp into T5 hardcast Ulamog, the deck will be fine. Just need to sort out what's in between.

Right now I'm banking on playing mana dorks to bypass the usual 4 drops (Bristling Hydra) and head straight into 5-7 drops. T2 Druid, T3 Weaver lets me cast 7CMC spells T4. T4 Plated Crusher or Gaeas Revenge > Bristling Hydra. Maybe I'm selling out too hard on that plan now, but it's where my thinking is currently.

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Yeah, go for it... you'll want the extra 2 dorks then...

I'll post the more midrange brew later... once I've built it.


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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Hard to know where the flex spots are, so lets do this a different way. Sorting into ranks of importance:

Essential Ramp (autoinclude):
4 x Druid of the Cowl
3 x Weaver of Currents
1 x Kiora, Master of the Depths


Essential Payoffs (autoinclude):
1 x Nissa, Steward of Elements
2 x Gaea's Revenge
2 x Plated Crusher
2 x Sandwurm Convergence
1 x Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger

(Maybe argue against sandwurms as autoinclude, but imho **** all that noise, I'm ramping and that **** looks fun, plus good)

Important Control (important but flexible)
2 x Heaven // Earth
2 x Monstrous Onslaught


Goodstuff (non-essential)
2 x Sylvan Advocate
1 x Rhonas the Indomitable
2 x Tireless Tracker
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 x Nissa, Vital Force


Flexible ramp:
4 x Explosive Vegetation


Flexible card advantage:
2 x Rishkar's Expertise
2 x Duskwatch Recruiter


Emergency hate:
1 x Reclamation Sage


Easiest target on the chopping block is Duskwatch Recruiter. Can't bank on him to ramp, and there are a fair amount of quality spells/planeswalkers he can't fetch. If more creature heavy then I would feel he's more important - but as is, Walking Ballista probably deserves the spot more. Still can come down T2 if needed. Nice mana dump late game.

Rec Sage feels a little out of place, especially at 1 copy. When it was added, I was thinking I'd be running Woodland Bellower to fetch up, but Bellower ended up not making the 1st draft. Not terribly worried about Cast Out, since it can't target 4 of my fatties. Heaven/sandwurms may reduce the need to recsage vehicles. Still unsure tho.

Rishkars Expertise is brutal AF in monogreen stompy. I don't want to cut it.

Not sure about Explosive Vegetation, but I don't want to be entirely dependent on mana dorks. If it got cut, I would want to replace with another ramp spell. Maybe testing proves it's not needed, but need to test.

There's some potential flex in the goodstuff catagory. Maybe w/o Nissa's Pilgrimage/Evolving Wilds, Tracker could get replaced for a quality 4 drop, but idk. That Tracker can be such a workhorse. I think both mono green Nissas stay. If either are cut, I'd lean towards the flip one. But that card advantage tho. Rhonas stays, I believe. Can't find much better home for that god than a deck that gets out a bunch of fatties. Sylvan Advocate stays. Not gonna find a better 2 drop goodstuff, and with manlands and Nissa creature lands, it's a great home.

The sphinx is attractive, but getting :u::u: online to cast it ahead of curve may be difficult. Heaven works against it (tho embalm is always an option), and I'm already packing hard(er) to kill fatties, so I'm not sure cutting one for sphinx is right.

I really really wish we had gotten that new manadork that enters play with -/- counters. Anycolor mana early and conversion into a decent body late would have been nice...

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Last edited by The Secret of TIMH on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:37 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Pore over the pages + gifts of paradise, amirite


I actually thought a bit about Gift of Paradise. Kiora + Weaver + Gifts for ALL THE MANA!!! WHERES MY RED :x: BURN!!! Originally I wanted to run then instead of Veggies. But then I got worried about enchantment hate and how fragile the dorks could be so I went the safer route w/ Veggies. I'm a coward :(

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:59 pm 
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I still think you should play the new 3 drop that makes your creatures uncounterable.


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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Maybe. Feeling like that's better for tempo/midrange tho. I got a pair of Gaeas that DGAF about counterspells for those matchups. We'll see how it shakes out in the end.

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:17 pm 
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I feel like people are stuck between a midrange and ramp deck. If you drop the Ulamog its GG. Did we forget From beyond was in the format still?

Essential backbone of a RAMP deck.
4 x Druid of the Cowl
1 x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3 x Weaver of Currents
4 x Explosive Vegetation
2 x Nissa's Renewal
2 x From Beyond


Finishers.
1 x Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger


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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:25 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:
I still think you should play the new 3 drop that makes your creatures uncounterable.


Hmm. Image

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:43 pm 
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I feel like people are stuck between a midrange and ramp deck. If you drop the Ulamog its GG. Did we forget From beyond was in the format still?

Essential backbone of a RAMP deck.
4 x Druid of the Cowl
1 x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3 x Weaver of Currents
4 x Explosive Vegetation
2 x Nissa's Renewal
2 x From Beyond


Finishers.
1 x Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger


Man, idk about from beyond. Deck has plenty of ramp, and FB is pretty slow for that. Do I want to run it just to insure I find Ulamog, and then watch him get exiled or Cast Outed? Is Kozy a strict upgrade from Gaeas/Plated, who can come down earlier and easier than kozy? And honestly, what am I going to have to do to my manabase to work him in in a way that doesn't completely rely on weavers or a pair of scions to be around? I'm not really feeling it...

Other than that, the only thing you're recommending that I'm not already trying to run is renewal. Feel like I'm running better options at the top of my curve. Like am I going to cut Rishkars for that? Is it necessary to ramp moar when I'm already at 6? Idk

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:51 pm 
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No Champion of Rhonas? Seems like bringing out cards T4 is the best ramp to me, and that'd have to be an auto-remove. The other bonus in ramp's favour, Planar Outburst isn't a popular sweeper atm.

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:02 am 
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Lol, I know, and I was so hyped for champion too. Trying to make this a more serious deck. Champion will go in my JFF brews. Maybe gruul beatdown (thinking championed locus of rage into a land drop T5 would be fun). Thinking if I'm ramping I don't really need Champion.

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:02 am 
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There will be a stricter Ramp variant and a midrange variant of this I think. Testing will tell which is better suited to the meta. Gem covered the typical high end of Ramp, but I think a lower to the ground version should consider:

- Verduous Gearhulk
- Glyph Keeper
- Curater of Mysteries
- Woodland Bellower
- Bounding Krasis

Simic has the unique opportunity to slow the opponent's tempo rather than Reds narrow removal. Maybe worth considering Baral's Expertise in the version proposed as well?

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:23 am 
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned Spring//Mind. Is it just me who thinks the card is actively good or do y'all deem the Aftermath too expensive? Because unconditional Draw is a beautiful thing in Ramp...

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:03 am 
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Essence Scatter seems a good card for the early game in a Simic Ramp (or late game in the mirror match up).


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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:04 am 
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My take on Simic Midrange:

3 x Aether Meltdown
2 x Curator of Mysteries
2 x Baral's Expertise
2 x Glyph Keeper

2 x Oath of Nissa
3 x Duskwatch Recruiter
3 x Lambholt Pacifist
2 x Sylvan Advocate
1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 x Prowling Serpopard
1 x Rhonas the Indomitable
2 x Tireless Tracker
2 x Bristling Hydra
1 x Nissa, Vital Force

1 x Nissa, Steward of Elements

2 x Smuggler's Copter
2 x Aethersphere Harvester
1 x Skysovereign, Consul Flagship


Rough Mana Base:
3 x Aether Hub
2 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Lumbering Falls
2 x Rogue's Passage
9 x Forest
8 x Island


Rough cut. Basically looking to land hard to deal with threats that are just bigger than everything else.

All of that said, based on what I just posted over in Gruul Midrange, I think this deck is tier 2 at best.


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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:59 am 
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No dorks, no ramp spells - get that **** outta here! :p

I'm just playin, the sphinxes look fun.


@Modulo - I thought briefly about that card because fetching any land T3 is fine in my deck that's trying to splash a bit of red. The aftermath is just bonus. I don't think the cost is too high in a ramp deck necessarily, but my issue is I'm in love with Rishkars in ramp. My top end doods are very hard to remove, so once I stick one Rishkars is easy money. Plus if I can aftermath Mind and I don't have a bomb on board that I could Rishkars instead for more cards, then I'm probably in more trouble than Mind could sort out. If I'm not replacing Rishkars, idk where spring // mind fits. Maybe use 2 instead of 2 of the Veggies, but I'm leaning now towards the value of 2 lands in play if I'm having trouble finding/sticking dorks.

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 Post subject: Re: [BREWING] Simic Ramp
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:12 pm 
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There will be a stricter Ramp variant and a midrange variant of this I think. Testing will tell which is better suited to the meta. Gem covered the typical high end of Ramp, but I think a lower to the ground version should consider:

- Verduous Gearhulk
- Glyph Keeper
- Curater of Mysteries
- Woodland Bellower
- Bounding Krasis

Simic has the unique opportunity to slow the opponent's tempo rather than Reds narrow removal. Maybe worth considering Baral's Expertise in the version proposed as well?


You guys really think I have too much midrange? There's only a handful of cards in my list that I think qualify, but idk about cutting them for more ramp. Worst thing about ramp is the games you draw all ramp and no bombs (or visa versa), so I think a splash of "midrange" is preferable to more risk of all-ramp/all-bombs draws.

And I really don't care about Kozy. No trample, no exile/mill, no haste. Refilling your hand is nice, menace is nice, and countering spells if you have something to discard that matches their cost is nice - but that cost is so high I prefer options I can cast waaay sooner if dorks aren't sticking. Maybe that's wrong, but I think there's a reason nobody plays with that dood, and 3 Weavers won't really change that...

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