It is currently Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:57 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 320 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:50 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 22, 2015
Posts: 413
Varjo wrote:
Light wrote:
Varjo wrote:


Agreed 100 percent. I don't know how blessed alliance can be considered bad removal in this sort of deck. You can play it t2 and kill something fast to buy time, you can play it later to kill a threat and gain life. It wins against burn. It wins against things that are hard to kill.


In these sorts of decks, if the opponent is able to attack with a bunch of stuff, things have gone very wrong already. Pretty much the only time it's annoying is when they resolve a pia... but even then I'll pay a card to kill the thoptor and gain 4 life. Also (it's rare but it happens) late when we have lots of mana we can play combat tricks using BA and manlands (or gearhulk).




As for your list, I'm not that worried about it being light on wincons, I'm worried about what you do when a threat actually resolves. 2 cast outs just isn't enough (in my opinion). What happens when someone lands tutelage or a big PW. It's not viable to plan on being able to counter absolutely everything with only ~8 counterspells. The real strength of esper (in my opinon) is the freedom to let almost anything through if needed, knowing that as long as they don't win soon, you'll draw an answer at some point. Needing an answer right now is much harder than simply needing one soon.


I'm sorry I read "only 8 counterspells" and then proceeded to laugh untill I passed out.



I'm not telling you you need to add more counterspells. I'm telling you it's just not viable to plan on being able to counterspell everything. What do you do against a T3 lili if both castouts are in the bottom half of your library?


3 off cencors , plus dynavolt tower. But serisouly jokes aside, your argument cannot be "what do you do when your answers are at the bottom of your deck and my 1 off that you need said answers for is a turn 3 play ... on the play " that's ridiculous man.

Edit : heck, if your that worried about such an outlier case, you could even run 2 off disperse instead of the scatters if you want.

_________________
Duels Youtube Channel :
Spoiler


Last edited by Light on Fri May 26, 2017 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:54 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan 15, 2017
Posts: 68
Well it's true that my list runs a nahiri on top of the castouts; and the unsubstantiate... but to be fair, in any control deck.... when you get to 4 mana + and you have a good counterspell suite... what you describe happens. Rarely. Less often than the times you get ran down because your early removal was hard to cast and stuff. The posited deck has better early removal for the meta, better mana, and runs (bit less than mine) a few bullets to resolved permanents. If I could doublesplash for Anguished Unmaking I would, we 've been over this.

It's about how often something happens. Not what could happen. Especially in Duels, where variance is even higher than in a format like, say Standard.



I just think it's funny. You guys come into the Esper control thread talking big about how it's inferior to other types of control. You get lots of reasons why it's not and now you're back to arguing for more early control? As you said... we've been over this. See my post above for tons more early options for esper builds. You do not need the red to have more low cmc answers than you can feasibly fit in a deck.

So... if early answers aren't the issue, then what are you still doing here? Esper is provably more versatile after several turns and there are clearly plenty of answers at low cmc available to both esper and jeskai.

At best I could see an argument that both have slightly different feels but are each viable (which I suspect is correct), so why did you come here again?


Light wrote:
Varjo wrote:
Light wrote:

I'm sorry I read "only 8 counterspells" and then proceeded to laugh untill I passed out.



I'm not telling you you need to add more counterspells. I'm telling you it's just not viable to plan on being able to counterspell everything. What do you do against a T3 lili if both castouts are in the bottom half of your library?


3 off cencors , plus dynavolt tower. But serisouly jokes aside, your argument cannot be "what do you do when your answers are at the bottom of your deck and my 1 off that you need said answers for is a turn 3 play ... on the play " that's ridiculous man.



It's not ridiculous at all. The point of Esper is versatility. You simply have more answers in the deck to any one thing. The probability that you find the answer you need in Epser is going to be larger (in most cases) than it is in Jeskai.


Edit:
And sure... I could swap disperse for some scatters, but that would hurt the deck a fair bit against other control. Esper doesn't have to make those kinds of choices as anguished unmaking is good pretty much always.


Last edited by Varjo on Fri May 26, 2017 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:58 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 22, 2015
Posts: 413
Varjo wrote:
Well it's true that my list runs a nahiri on top of the castouts; and the unsubstantiate... but to be fair, in any control deck.... when you get to 4 mana + and you have a good counterspell suite... what you describe happens. Rarely. Less often than the times you get ran down because your early removal was hard to cast and stuff. The posited deck has better early removal for the meta, better mana, and runs (bit less than mine) a few bullets to resolved permanents. If I could doublesplash for Anguished Unmaking I would, we 've been over this.

It's about how often something happens. Not what could happen. Especially in Duels, where variance is even higher than in a format like, say Standard.



I just think it's funny. You guys come into the Esper control thread talking big about how it's inferior to other types of control. You get lots of reasons why it's not and now you're back to arguing for more early control? As you said... we've been over this. See my post above for tons more early options for esper builds. You do not need the red to have more low cmc answers than you can feasibly fit in a deck.

So... if early answers aren't the issue, then what are you still doing here? Esper is provably more versatile after several turns and there are clearly plenty of answers at low cmc available to both esper and jeskai.

At best I could see an argument that both have slightly different feels but are each viable (which I suspect is correct), so why did you come here again?


Light wrote:
Varjo wrote:


I'm not telling you you need to add more counterspells. I'm telling you it's just not viable to plan on being able to counterspell everything. What do you do against a T3 lili if both castouts are in the bottom half of your library?


3 off cencors , plus dynavolt tower. But serisouly jokes aside, your argument cannot be "what do you do when your answers are at the bottom of your deck and my 1 off that you need said answers for is a turn 3 play ... on the play " that's ridiculous man.



It's not ridiculous at all. The point of Esper is versatility. You simply have more answers in the deck to any one thing. The probability that you find the answer you need in Epser is going to be larger (in most cases) than it is in Jeskai.


Regarding your early answers , you are comparing dead weight and the like , to impulse, magma spray, and harnessed lightning ( if you aren't running grasp , but even if you are harnessed is better for obvious reasons - mana etc) ? Come on dude.

_________________
Duels Youtube Channel :
Spoiler


Last edited by Light on Fri May 26, 2017 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:01 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan 15, 2017
Posts: 68
Quote:
Regarding your early answers , you are comparing dead weight and the like , to impulse, magma spray, and harnessed lightning ( if you aren't running grasp , but even if you are harnessed it better for obvious reasons) ? Come on dude.


fatal push
aether meltdown
blessed alliance
essence scatter
censor
grasp of darkness

That really isn't enough low mana control for you? I listed other options just to show the extremely large number of spells available to choose from.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:10 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 22, 2015
Posts: 413
Varjo wrote:
[quote="[url=http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?p=563926#p563926]
Regarding your early answers , you are comparing dead weight and the like , to impulse, magma spray, and harnessed lightning ( if you aren't running grasp , but even if you are harnessed it better for obvious reasons) ? Come on dude.


fatal push
aether meltdown
blessed alliance
essence scatter
censor
grasp of darkness

That really isn't enough low mana control for you? I listed other options just to show the extremely large number of spells available to choose from.[/quote]

We've been over this. But I'll try to make it more elaborate. First lets get rid of the common spells shall we ?

So now we have
Fatal push
aether meltdown
grasp

vs
Impulse
Spray
Harnessed lightning.

Fatal is fine ofc.
Aether is subpar , and costs more than spray. It also isn't fuel for Gearhulk or Disciple.

Grasp is really bad for the mana as you now need double black , and double blue early on.

_________________
Duels Youtube Channel :
Spoiler


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:13 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan 15, 2017
Posts: 68
Grasp is totally playable, I've messed with it quite a bit and it's fine. The point isn't that esper early control is better, but that it's adequate. Because it's good enough, all of the later advantages to esper make it very appealing.

In a head to head comparison, you're absolutely right. jeskai early stuff is slightly better (but esper is clearly better later). So... both options are viable? Weird. Why did you come into this thread to **** post again?


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:16 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 28, 2015
Posts: 4835
Identity: Male
Preferred Pronoun Set: uhhhhh
I love the control turf wars.

_________________
KLD Season King of the Hill Winner.
EMN Season King of the Hill Winner.

The one true King of NGA Magic Duels on Xbox One.

You want some? Come get some. You don't like me? Bite me.

Day 1,000 of the never-ending Vert monarchy.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16077

Magic's a simple game, 2 people take turns playing cards and in the end Divinevert wins 2-0...


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:18 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan 15, 2017
Posts: 68
divinevert wrote:
I love the control turf wars.



Damn straight :)


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:21 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9791
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Jesus hates this thread and so do i

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:24 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: May 05, 2015
Posts: 2820
Location: zz
Identity: Nah.
Preferred Pronoun Set: ---
Hold up, why did my thread get 3 pages all of a sudden? Image

Jking; the discussion on wheter Esper, Jeskai, or Grixis where more efficient was interesting to say the least. Image

_________________
GameCenter ID: zzmorg82_

Link to my smilies: https://imgur.com/a/HJMsX


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:29 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 03, 2015
Posts: 1662
So let's agree that WE are better early... YOU are more or less equal but theoretically SLIGHTLY better late... And YOU run 27 lands including 4 evolving wilds, 2 other taplands, and double double manacosts. WE run 24/25 with 4 taplands and we play doubleblue Oh we have a double red 6 drop, sorry. And we play more draw. Case **** closed.


Last edited by Goblin Rabblemaster on Fri May 26, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:34 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 28, 2015
Posts: 4835
Identity: Male
Preferred Pronoun Set: uhhhhh
Esper is not "slightly" better late lmao

_________________
KLD Season King of the Hill Winner.
EMN Season King of the Hill Winner.

The one true King of NGA Magic Duels on Xbox One.

You want some? Come get some. You don't like me? Bite me.

Day 1,000 of the never-ending Vert monarchy.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16077

Magic's a simple game, 2 people take turns playing cards and in the end Divinevert wins 2-0...


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:17 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: May 05, 2015
Posts: 2820
Location: zz
Identity: Nah.
Preferred Pronoun Set: ---
So let's agree that WE are better early... YOU are more or less equal but theoretically SLIGHTLY better late... And YOU run 27 lands including 4 evolving wilds, 2 other taplands, and double double manacosts. WE run 24/25 with 4 taplands and we play doubleblue Oh we have a double red 6 drop, sorry. And we play more draw. Case **** closed.


Image

_________________
GameCenter ID: zzmorg82_

Link to my smilies: https://imgur.com/a/HJMsX


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:09 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 08, 2016
Posts: 762
Location: Central U.S.
grixis best.

_________________
Free 2 play Magic Arena for casual fun.
Building the best deck.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:11 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan 15, 2017
Posts: 68
You know what, I've seen the light. Mono G clearly best control.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:15 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec 19, 2015
Posts: 1622
Varjo wrote:
You know what, I've seen the light. Mono G clearly best control.


I love it. Control their life total down to 0, and they can't do **** about it!

On a more serious notion, I currently like URx the best for control colours. Magma Spray's exile clause has been very relevant to me (relevant enough that I'm running it as a 4-of over other 1-CMC removal), Radiant Flames >>>>> Languish currently because coming online a turn earlier is HUGE, and Harnessed Lightning is way easier to cast than Grasp while being about as good.

As for wincons: Chandra is about as good as Sorin (though I think she's positioned a bit better in the current meta) and while Jeskai loses out on Liliana and Ob, gaining Nahiri makes all up for it. With a wincon-suite of Nahiri, Disciple, big Jace, Chandra and Gearhulk, plus maybe baby Jace or Kefnet as well as two Pull from Tomorrow, I think Jeskai is set up well enough in that regard.

Compared to Jeskai, Grixis has to resort to Obi instead of Nahiri, which is shaky considering the manabase and thus slightly weaker. On the other hand, Grixis gains access to Fatal Push, making its aggro matchup even better (3 Push, 3 Lightning, 2 Spray, 2 Flames is fantastic). I think it's a tad too light on wincons, but playable.

Esper is still the best in control mirrors, but I found it weaker in aggro match-ups, and I think the difference is significant.

_________________
My decks can be found in my deckbuilder archive. Enter here!


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:38 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Aug 05, 2016
Posts: 1121
I think that people here understimate Essence Scatter (i did it too) and overstimate Confirm Suspicions.

_________________
Why so serious? Let's put a smile on that face.

My youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8WdNm ... mA6v3zuwoA
Deckbuilding contest: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=17763


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:45 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec 19, 2015
Posts: 1622
Giocher wrote:
I think that people here understimate Essence Scatter (i did it too) and overstimate Confirm Suspicions.


Essence Scatter is a card I underestimated indeed. It still fights for its place with removal and can't deal with resolved threats, but a 2-mana Murder that stops their ETB and gets around indestructible is pretty awesome. Currently it's a 2-of in most control lists for me.

Confirm is our replacement for Torrential Gearhulk numbers 2 and 3 - counterspell with heavy upside, and we need it.

_________________
My decks can be found in my deckbuilder archive. Enter here!


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:01 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Aug 05, 2016
Posts: 1121
Yeah i use Scatter as 2 of too, instead of one removal and one Cancel. About Confirm, the card is good but i don't feel it as a must.

_________________
Why so serious? Let's put a smile on that face.

My youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8WdNm ... mA6v3zuwoA
Deckbuilding contest: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=17763


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:11 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan 15, 2017
Posts: 68
I see the argument for scatter. For me, it's more tempting as a sideboard option (though it isn't in mine because I did a bad job with my board). I get nervous about going too all in on things that don't hit resolved threats. TBH scatter seems more appealing to me in dual color control with less removal options.

Confirm is amazing. It's one of our best tools vs mid-range decks. Without it, someone who keeps playing threats every turn could prevent us from resolving draw for a while, confirm fixes that and lets us trade 1-1 without worrying about running out of gas. It also synergizes with both push and memory.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 320 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group