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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:17 am 
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Giocher wrote:
I think that people here understimate Essence Scatter (i did it too) and overstimate Confirm Suspicions.


Meh; Essence Scatter is aight; especially if you're facing aggro decks consistenly. It gets even better after sideboards. You could even make a claim for Horribly Awry as well if we're curving out.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:33 pm 
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zzmorg82 wrote:
You could even make a claim for Horribly Awry as well if we're curving out.


I've been in that camp for most of the time as well, but I've swung towards Scatter. In the current meta it's too important to hit Glorybringer, Gearhulk, Incorrigible Youths and others; you have other ways to exile Scrounger and Dread Wanderer.

Varjo wrote:
TBH scatter seems more appealing to me in dual color control with less removal options.


Fair point, though I think I'd even run 2 of it in Grixis alongside 3 Push, 2 Spray, 3 Lightning (or something along these lines). To me, the card that has to go for it is Murder/Disintegration/Skywhaler's Shot.


I should probably post where I'm at currently; dunno whether I've done so before.

Creatures (3)
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Disciple of the Ring
1 x Torrential Gearhulk

Planeswalkers (3)
1 x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Chandra, Flamecaller

Sorceries (2)
2 x Radiant Flames

Instants (24)
4 x Magma Spray
3 x Censor
2 x Essence Scatter
3 x Harnessed Lightning
3 x Broken Concentration
2 x Scatter to the Winds
3 x Glimmer of Genius
2 x Confirm Suspicions
2 x Pull from Tomorrow

Split (2)
2 x Commit // Memory

Lands (26)
1 x Plains
4 x Island
4 x Mountain
2 x Wandering Fumarole
2 x Praerie Stream
2 x Clifftop Retreat
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Sulfur Falls
3 x Aether Hub
4 x Evolving Wilds

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:21 pm 
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I like the list but I'd still run -2 essence scatter +2 cast out. Other than that, I can tell just by looking it runs pretty smoothly (I of course have a few small playstyle/preference changes I make but that's a minor thing).


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:30 am 
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I've come down on Cast Out lately. It's one of the Most expensive spells to remove a permanent, can't be recurred in the decks we're running and is the most vulnerable to a blowout. In a shell where we can counter most things, Commit seems better and the third/fourth big removal spell seems a bit redundant.

That being said, if I were to include two Cast Out (or Blessed Alliance), I believe my first cut would be the fourth Magma Spray. The other cut I'm a lot less sure about; possibly Baby Jace.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:52 pm 
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Ok i started crushing dreams in ladder with esper control 2 days ago, but here's what i'm trying now. It's not a final build i would say, i still have about 50 cards going in and out during my testing. I'm posting this list only because is quite different than the ones in the tourney.

3 x Fatal Push
1 x Blessed Alliance
2 x Grasp of Darkness
2 x Pull from Tomorrow
2 x Essence Scatter
3 x Censor
2 x Scatter to the Winds
2 x Broken Concentration
2 x Angushed Unmaking
2 x Cast Out
1 x Commit // Memory
4 x Hieroglyphics Illumination
2 x Languish
2 x Confirm Suspicions
1 x Disciple of the Ring
1 x Torrential Gearhulk
1 x Sorin, Grim Nemesis

1 x Plains
7 x Island
6 x Swamp
2 x Sunken Hollow
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Evolving Wilds


Notable differences:
- only one copy of Blessed Alliance. I don't like it as removal, especially in a counter heavy control deck, leaving you almost tapped out before the second main phase. It's a card mostly for aggro matchup, not extremely common as before to justify more copies. One copy is good for flexibility but mostly just a bit of lifegain.
- Essence Scatter is a very good card, i thought that removals were always better than this card but i was wrong. It made a very good job. I have cut 1 Grasp and 1 Concentration.
- Illumination. This is one of the most important changes. I have read an article by Soorani and his UB control in standard, in which he says to prefer this over Glimmer. Well standard is a different thing, in which having Glimmers stuck in hand could be a problem, so i wanted to try it in duels. Having cycle is relevant, especially in aggro matchups, but i'm still working about the amount of card draw in my deck, so i can see Glimmer come back.
- Wincons. I have 3 real wincons (Disciple, Hulk, Sorin) and 4 pseudo wincons (2 Pull, 2 Suspicions). They should be enough, i could see adding just one more (little Lili or Ob). Suspicions is good, i had no doubts about this, but to keep it i had to cut big Jace and Ob.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:56 pm 
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I wonder why so many people like HI so much over Glimmer; the cycling must be that relevant in games. Image

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:41 pm 
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In standard HI is stronger. People are running 4 gearhulks and not having draw options in GY when you want to play one can hurt. I think it's much less appealing for us because we usually hulk later as it's only a singleton and losing it hurts us much more if we can't protect it. Most standard decks also aren't relying on aether hubs to mana fix for them. While it's not a huge thing, the synergy between hub and glimmer is nice. We also are less consistent than standard decks because of duels rarity rules, making card selection from scry more important for us.

I don't fault people for running HI, but I prefer glimmer.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:45 am 
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Yeah having a full play set of Torrential makes Illumination much better because you can just cycle it before casting a hulk and profit.

Cycling in general is pretty nice making any deck smaller but where energy matters even in standard glimmer is better. Varjo's point on our restrictions is valid but I think Illumination is better than what many here stated in different threads. The early card selection illumination brings with it's cycle is nice and can allow you to run less lands if you are running other cyclers like censor. I have even tried some control decks with 24 lands and cyclers and it runs pretty good. I am still high on Cast out for this reason.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 4:17 am 
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I've tried various combinations of Pull/Hieroglyphic/Glimmer/telling time. Varjo and Sl33phumper covered the gist of it, but i'll try to be a bit more precise as to why I wouldn't underestimate the card even in duels.

_ I don't think you run Hieroglyphic over Glimmer in a classical control deck, although I could see this in a low land spells matter (drake haven, engima drake, Archifiend, cryptic serpent) brew. Glimmer can be a bit slow, but it is still by far the best drawspell we have to bridge the game; and outshines pull until it is a 6 drop.
_ I think it is reasonable to consider that if you have confirm suspicions, running a few more 2cmc answers and upping your Hieroglyphic count can be quite good over overloading on Pulls. If you can present answers on t1 and/or t2, then you can 2cmc answer + cycle on t3 or present a 3cmc answer.
Likewise, you can glimmer/hieroglyphic on t4 or cycle + 3cmc answer, and play confirm / big jace on t5 or play a 4cmc spell + cycle.
That's a nice little flexible curve (to which confirm suspicions contributes post t5, because you can now combine lower cmc spells +cracking clues to keep going), and then can count your t6 + spells to be chandra/sorin + gearhulk + pull + disciple.

I've been running 3 glimmer + 3 hieroglyphic + 2 Cast out + 1 pull like this in a 25 land deck, but I've also done 1 hieroglyphic + 2 telling time with the 3 glimmer and 2 cast out + 1 pull.
Both approaches have their merits and disadvantages, but I'm bigger on Hieroglyphic illumination than I was during spoilers.
The only well performing UR control list on the pro-tour ran 4 glimmer 4 hieroglyphic 4 censor, 2 sweltering suns as cyclers + 1 pull and presented a 24 land deck this way! By making his list this lean, he actually had a fav matchup vs most of the field, and was only mildly disadvantaged vs Mardu (which still can have draws in standard that are just too fast for the deck to handle).

Having access to 2 pull seems mainly a boon in the mirror; but as stated by Light before, Variance is so important in the mirror, that it doesn't feel worth it to risk getting too many 6+ drops in hand in other matchups. I'd certainly put 1 in the SB with dispels for the mirror ofc.


Last edited by Goblin Rabblemaster on Tue May 30, 2017 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 4:37 am 
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Varjo wrote:
In standard HI is stronger. People are running 4 gearhulks and not having draw options in GY when you want to play one can hurt. I think it's much less appealing for us because we usually hulk later as it's only a singleton and losing it hurts us much more if we can't protect it. Most standard decks also aren't relying on aether hubs to mana fix for them. While it's not a huge thing, the synergy between hub and glimmer is nice. We also are less consistent than standard decks because of duels rarity rules, making card selection from scry more important for us.

I don't fault people for running HI, but I prefer glimmer.

Yeah i like Glimmer too, depending on the amount of card draw i use i could see 2 Glimmers and 3 Illuminations.
I'm not sure about the Hulk reasoning, i mean if we consider Glimmer and Illumination in the same spot of the deck you should have already played one of them before Hulk. If you are under pressure you probably won't, but in that case you probably flashback something else with Hulk. Ofc there are cases in which you have time to cycle Illumination but not to play Glimmer.
Yeah energy is not relevant in this deck and scry is always good. I feel that the main reason (even though i don't play standard) is that Illumination is faster, against zombies and Marvel decks that can close the game on turn 4. I can tell you my experience on duels against aggro decks last season, and i never wanted a Glimmer early in my hand. But i suppose that in this shifted meta Glimmer is better for us.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:28 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Vert, I count 62 cards in the main and 26 land.



Nah, it's 60. Just recounted.


62 with 28 lands by my count. I assume it's meant to be 26 lands?

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Its so funny to me how everyone is slicing hairs trying to figure out the correct amount of draw to lands to spells in their deck. Censor is to Negate as Telling Time is to Anticipate. Just play 3 Telling Time, 3 Glimmer of Genius, and if you want then 2 Pull from Tomorrow.

All your problems will disappear when you submit to Telling Time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:18 am 
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Kel'Thuzad wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Vert, I count 62 cards in the main and 26 land.



Nah, it's 60. Just recounted.


62 with 28 lands by my count. I assume it's meant to be 26 lands?

Not sure why he didn't just edit his post but...
divinevert wrote:
28 lands vert? Count again

Oh , dunno why I put 5 island

It's 3 island

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:45 am 
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Its so funny to me how everyone is slicing hairs trying to figure out the correct amount of draw to lands to spells in their deck. Censor is to Negate as Telling Time is to Anticipate. Just play 3 Telling Time, 3 Glimmer of Genius, and if you want then 2 Pull from Tomorrow.

All your problems will disappear when you submit to Telling Time.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:22 am 
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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Quote:
All your problems will disappear when you submit to Telling Time.


Well this is getting kinky :3

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:33 pm 
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I can't stop laughing at that gif

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:58 am 
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Do aggro threads get this long?


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:09 am 
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Do aggro threads get this long?

They try to end the discussion on page 4.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:21 pm 
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So thematic!


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