It is currently Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:57 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 139 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:29 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 19, 2014
Posts: 1267
Mono white does have game too.

And since we've said all the others...mono blue....who am I kidding...even I can't get behind that one.


elk

_________________
oh SHUT UP ELK


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:11 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Aug 05, 2014
Posts: 905
Preferred Pronoun Set: 46 & 2
There are also good mono Blue decks. Steam showdown one from Binderato and Cucho's in the IoS tournament to name a few. Just last season Bind went pretty far in showdown with a blue fliers deck

_________________
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

IoS Koth viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16119&start=480#p559563


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:16 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 03, 2015
Posts: 1662
I think there should be a drunkthrough tournament where we force barney to play jeskai control :) Oh and they should force me to play Mardu Matchbox.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:49 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 8960
Location: Brazil
Question: Are we searching for 30 decks from different archetypes, or we don't mind having 15 Vehicle decks and 15 Esper/Fesper/Mesper decks? I ask because, while I can see that the first option would lead to a more fun experience (and more useful info), we'll really need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for the last few archetypes, and those will probably be some pretty questionable decks.

_________________
Yes, I'm from Brazil and no, I'm not an annoying ****.

RPG characters


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:32 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 19, 2014
Posts: 1267
felbatista wrote:
Question: Are we searching for 30 decks from different archetypes, or we don't mind having 15 Vehicle decks and 15 Esper/Fesper/Mesper decks? I ask because, while I can see that the first option would lead to a more fun experience (and more useful info), we'll really need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for the last few archetypes, and those will probably be some pretty questionable decks.

Ideally we have lots of different archetypes but ultimately we're aiming for the top 30 regardless of what they are. Now based on your example, there'd only be one dedicated cars deck and one dedicated esper control (although we could have an esper draw/go and another that might be creature control). There maybe argument for a few different variations but typically the variations are minimal and we should be able to debate our way to a final list. So if folks have to have a rakdos cars and a mardu cars so be it but we don't need 8 rakdos versions and 7 mardu versions. It's also fine if we end up with 30 esper decks as long as they are all different and not just different variations of control.


elk

_________________
oh SHUT UP ELK


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:13 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 20, 2013
Posts: 724
Location: Bama gulf coast
Preferred Pronoun Set: SleepHmper on XBL add me
This is going to be the top 60 decks. Count me in by the way.

I too have had a lot of success playing Jeski control. :r::b: vamps could have a spot as well in the top 30.

_________________
The Last Fight Club Champion
Image
"If there can be no victory, then I will fight forever."
—Koth of the Hammer


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:00 am 
Online
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Posts: 2721
Location: Portugal
I have a suggestion:

Meld ideas and use the deckbuilding contests to decide on the variant to go into the hall of fame.

We can start by the more consensual archtype like mardu Vehicles for example. People will submit 5-6 lists and we'll go from there. Keeping the number of lists lower will make it easier to test and get the evaluation done.

How does that sound?

_________________
Give me land, Give me fire, Give me that which I desire! :mage:
My Duels Youtube Channel


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:47 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24, 2017
Posts: 1115
Sounds great to me, really looking forward to it.

_________________
:planeswalker:


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:54 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Aug 04, 2014
Posts: 489
Whoo! It's not easy to whittle the list down to 30! 40 would be much easier. Thanks, stainless...
I tried to include decks mentioned by others, too (both here and in other threads under constructed).Hopefully this gives a solid base to go forward with.

Pure's top 30
(No particular order and classifications are loose)

Aggro
Red deck wins
Mono black
Ww humans
Rg energy
Bg energy
Jund energy
Bg counters
Orzhov zombies
Rakdos aggro
Rakdos vehicles
Mardu vehicles
Rakdos vamps

Control
Mardu control
Esper control
Jeskai control
Ur control

Combo
Rakdos artifacts
Geist ramp
Jund ramp
Simic ramp
Temur fling
Ur burn
Ur tutelage

Midrange
Bant tempo
4 color walkers
Temur emerge
Bg delirium
Rg mids
Orzhov tokens
Ur thopters

Honorable mention:(20)
Grixis control
Counterflash
W/g humans
Orzhov control
Dimir artifacts
Blue Red drazi
Boros vehicles
Big red
Bu cycling
Bu artifacts
Reanimator
Gruul pump
Orzhov control
Boros aggro
Abzan mids
Sultai crats
Elves
Gw ramp
Grixis flicker
Grixis artifact aggro


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:10 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 8960
Location: Brazil
elk wrote:
felbatista wrote:
Question: Are we searching for 30 decks from different archetypes, or we don't mind having 15 Vehicle decks and 15 Esper/Fesper/Mesper decks? I ask because, while I can see that the first option would lead to a more fun experience (and more useful info), we'll really need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for the last few archetypes, and those will probably be some pretty questionable decks.

Ideally we have lots of different archetypes but ultimately we're aiming for the top 30 regardless of what they are. Now based on your example, there'd only be one dedicated cars deck and one dedicated esper control (although we could have an esper draw/go and another that might be creature control). There maybe argument for a few different variations but typically the variations are minimal and we should be able to debate our way to a final list. So if folks have to have a rakdos cars and a mardu cars so be it but we don't need 8 rakdos versions and 7 mardu versions. It's also fine if we end up with 30 esper decks as long as they are all different and not just different variations of control.


elk


We do have many archetypes, but most of them aren't as good as a select feel. My point is that the best deck of the 28th archetype will be worse than the 8th best Vehicles decklist. Having 10 Vehicles list will be boring, but having 30 different archetypes will lead to some subpar lists towards the end, even if they rae the best they can possibly be.

_________________
Yes, I'm from Brazil and no, I'm not an annoying ****.

RPG characters


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:49 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 19, 2014
Posts: 1267
Pure has quite a few good ones and there are more in the thread too. I don't think it will be too hard to find the 30 without dipping into any desperate choices.


elk

_________________
oh SHUT UP ELK


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:43 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 20, 2013
Posts: 724
Location: Bama gulf coast
Preferred Pronoun Set: SleepHmper on XBL add me
[url=/viewtopic.php?p=569741#p569741]felbatista[/url] wrote:
elk wrote:
felbatista wrote:
Question: Are we searching for 30 decks from different archetypes, or we don't mind having 15 Vehicle decks and 15 Esper/Fesper/Mesper decks? I ask because, while I can see that the first option would lead to a more fun experience (and more useful info), we'll really need to scrap the bottom of the barrel for the last few archetypes, and those will probably be some pretty questionable decks.

Ideally we have lots of different archetypes but ultimately we're aiming for the top 30 regardless of what they are. Now based on your example, there'd only be one dedicated cars deck and one dedicated esper control (although we could have an esper draw/go and another that might be creature control). There maybe argument for a few different variations but typically the variations are minimal and we should be able to debate our way to a final list. So if folks have to have a rakdos cars and a mardu cars so be it but we don't need 8 rakdos versions and 7 mardu versions. It's also fine if we end up with 30 esper decks as long as they are all different and not just different variations of control.


elk


We do have many archetypes, but most of them aren't as good as a select feel. My point is that the best deck of the 28th archetype will be worse than the 8th best Vehicles decklist. Having 10 Vehicles list will be boring, but having 30 different archetypes will lead to some subpar lists towards the end, even if they rae the best they can possibly be.

Sometimes I create a unique deck and think it's the second coming of Caw blade. I felt that way about my dimir artifacts deck "Whir of the Whirlers". It's certainly not tier 1 but at the time I thought I was really onto something. It generally had some game vs vehicle decks because you could use whir of invention to instant speed pull out skysoverign or an aethersphere harvester to block with. The deck could also come out flat at times if you didn't get a good artifact heavy opening hand / too many improvise payoff cards or never drew into a payoff. It didn't win the deck building contest so in the end I over valued my creation, meh.

I guess my point is sometimes it's hard to say how good a deck is when you have bias. We all have bias and sometimes even with bias you aren't wrong but your judgment may not be precise.

_________________
The Last Fight Club Champion
Image
"If there can be no victory, then I will fight forever."
—Koth of the Hammer


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:59 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec 19, 2015
Posts: 1602
felbatista wrote:

We do have many archetypes, but most of them aren't as good as a select feel. My point is that the best deck of the 28th archetype will be worse than the 8th best Vehicles decklist. Having 10 Vehicles list will be boring, but having 30 different archetypes will lead to some subpar lists towards the end, even if they rae the best they can possibly be.


I get your point, but is the 8th best vehicles decklist really distinct enough from the best in its colour without being strictly worse? And if it's strictly worse, why even play it?

Anyways; here's what I'd pick for top 30-ish:

-Vehicles (Mardu, Esper, (Boros))
Not 100% sure if Boros is not just a strictly worse version of Mardu. Haven't seen Esper yet, but that would've been an archetype I could see exploring if I fire Duels up again.
Rakdos Vehicles is listed as Rakdos Aggro - Artifacts/Vehicles.

-Rakdos Aggro (Artifacts/Vehicles, Madness, Vampires)
All of these archetypes are distinct enough to deserve their own mention.

-The Energy/Constrictor group (Gruul, Golgari, (Jund))
Gruul Energy Aggro and Golgari Constrictor Midrange (this includes +1/+1 counters) are definitely top 30 archetypes. Jund I'm less certain about; that deck could just be better off cutting one colour.

-Counterspell-based control (Dimir, Esper, Izzet, Jeskai, Grixis)
I'm not even sure these should take up 5 archetype slots. Basically, these lists can be divided into UBx (Dimir/Esper/Grixis) and URx (Izzet/Jeskai/Grixis) depending on the dominant secondary colour. The last colour is generally splashed for.

-Dynavolt Control (Grixis, Izzet)
I believe this deck is distinct enough from Counterspell-based control to deserve a special notion.

-Zombies (Orzhov, Dimir (Mono-Black))
Orzhov and Dimir are definitely distinct enough and are not strictly better or worse than the other archetype. It is very possible that mono-Black Zombies is just worse than either deck or than Mono-Black Midrange.

-White-based Aggro (Humans, Exert)
Humans is an umbrella term for 5+ decks, all of which I'm not 100% sure whether they're good enough.
Exert I am unsure about as well; at first I thought it would just not be good; then I came up with a list shortly before Duels was announced to be discontinued; I haven't tested or shared it yet.

-Various aggro decks (Mono-G Stompy, Mono-R Burn, Dimir/Grixis Artifacts)

-Various Midrange decks (Mono-B, Orzhov Tokens, Mardu Walkers, Golgari Delirium)

-Various archetypes I'm unsure about (Ramp (Drazi, Simic, GeistRamp, Grapple), Mill, Simic/Azorius/Bant Tempo, Bant/Abzan/Naya Walkers)

_________________
My decks can be found in my deckbuilder archive. Enter here!


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:16 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 8960
Location: Brazil
elk wrote:
Pure has quite a few good ones and there are more in the thread too. I don't think it will be too hard to find the 30 without dipping into any desperate choices.


elk


Pure's list has a lot of decks that are just the same thing, though, and I'm sure there's a lot of overlap with the rest of the thread.

Modulo wrote:
I get your point, but is the 8th best vehicles decklist really distinct enough from the best in its colour without being strictly worse? And if it's strictly worse, why even play it?


I'm not advocating for one side or another, I'm just poiting out that, while selecting 30 archetypes leads to a more fun, and probably more useful, experience, it has the problem of showcasing some mediocre decks.

Duels has 10, maybe 15 good archetypes, but the rest is either bad or a variation of the first few. No format can accommodate 30 distinct archetypes at a similar power level.

_________________
Yes, I'm from Brazil and no, I'm not an annoying ****.

RPG characters


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:42 pm 
Online
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Posts: 2721
Location: Portugal
Beyond our own biases, how well a deck performs is largely affected by the current meta.
For instance, my current mono-red deck (not the showdown version) usually performs well against aggro or mid-range decks but gets crushed by control decks, so its nowhere near T1, since control is abundant on the ladder.
Or if we look back, certain archtypes that dominated a few seasons ago, aren't very strong now against the current meta.

So, the top-30 can be all about what is good now or a hall of fame for the best decks that existed along the Duels timeline.

_________________
Give me land, Give me fire, Give me that which I desire! :mage:
My Duels Youtube Channel


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:34 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 19, 2014
Posts: 1267
Haven_pt wrote:
Beyond our own biases, how well a deck performs is largely affected by the current meta.

Or if we look back, certain archtypes that dominated a few seasons ago, aren't very strong now against the current meta.

So, the top-30 can be all about what is good now or a hall of fame for the best decks that existed along the Duels timeline.

See this is what I was saying in my previous posts. I personally don't believe the 'current meta' will stay. As more and more folks move away from the game, the potential remaining folks are likely to be new players who found a FtP game. They are likely to redefine the meta. The other thing to consider is that the current meta (as was for other meta's) is largely influenced by the current set. There are typically quite a few 'flavored' decks in the meta and generally disappear with a new set. With extended time, flavored decks won't likely exist and it'll be what's playable and competitive. It's why I think quite a few 'old' decks/archetypes will be valid again (or could be valid now but just got pushed to the side from over play/boring).

If our current meta is actually a true reflection of the best decks available (and as I said before, I'm not entirely sure that it is), then creating the top 30 should be pretty easy. However if we look at some of the older decks and updated them, I think several could still be solid contenders.

@Fellbatista - if in say 6 months to a year there is a clearly defined meta, then you're right. There will only be a handful of top tier playable decks that are part of the meta or combat the meta. Again though, I think in that time frame, the meta will be a huge hodgepodge of decks and trying to find a deck that will combat the majority will be difficult. Then it'd come down to playing competitive/successful decks and hope you don't face 'rock' to your 'scissors'. I also don't think the meta will mature where it cycles (i.e. lots of aggro, play midrange. Lots of midrange, play control. Lots of control, play aggro). I'm guessing the most common will be aggro at that point for the sake of new players being gold grinders but I'm also assuming a lot of those gold grinders are working towards unlocking 'fun/cool' decks (hence the hodgepodge). I guess time will tell, but I still think that if you were to hop on 6 months from now, you could probably play any of the top 30 we define here and have good success. Even if it's something like Izzet Thopters or 3 (or 4) color Walkers or BG Counters or Esper Draw/go etc etc.


elk

_________________
oh SHUT UP ELK


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:14 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 20, 2013
Posts: 724
Location: Bama gulf coast
Preferred Pronoun Set: SleepHmper on XBL add me
I think the meta is already changing as a lot of the old guard have dropped out.

_________________
The Last Fight Club Champion
Image
"If there can be no victory, then I will fight forever."
—Koth of the Hammer


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:05 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24, 2017
Posts: 1115
Image


So I have been working on a mono red deck, and this list has given me an absurd winrate, would you like to take it for a ride and tell me what do you think of it :D

Spoiler

_________________
:planeswalker:


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:56 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9755
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
yes please, i love the focus. I have been dying to really give Harsh Mentor a spin.

great title too. I'm trying to get the g/f to watch that movie sometime in the next few weeks. Want to show her The Wrestler first tho...

In Bruges wasn't a hit :(

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:40 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24, 2017
Posts: 1115
I'm trying to get the g/f to watch that movie sometime in the next few weeks. Want to show her The Wrestler first tho...
In Bruges wasn't a hit :(


Amateur, you should show her "In the mood for love" pun intended, its a great movie and girls really dig it ;)

Spoiler


Ps: The Wrestler its one of my favourite movies :D

_________________
:planeswalker:


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 139 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group