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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:30 am 
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Name another card that can Draw a free card, down-tempo your opponent 1 turn, lock your opponent out of playing for over half the game, allow you to circumvent card type restrictions, AND either trade favorably (card-for-card) with your opponent or gain you a certain amount of life because your opponent has to direct damage to it instead of your life total.

All for 3 mana


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:26 am 
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Hmm, I might not understand the meta after all. Took the GP Lyon winning decklist to Traditional Standard @ Silver rank, and managed to lose every game. Like, every game, pre-board and post-board.

The main problem seems to be my clock is just way too slow and opponent gets to do their own cool things, e.g. if I can't kill Edgewall Innkeeper, it's drawing a ton of cards and winning the game. I could turn it into an elk, but 3/3s aren't negligible creatures, and I have no good way to kill 5/5 Lovestruck Beasts either. Even if I did kill Edgewall Innkeeper with Wicked Wolf, they can bring it back with Order of Midnight, and I'll get out-grinded. I can't even try to kill them before they grind me out since my deck just isn't very aggressive.

I lost games to Jeskai Fires as well - I had no answer to Cavalier of Gales, and they had plenty of sweepers that made it hard to sit behind countermagic.

Wondering if I'm doing something wrong or just hitting a very bad streak. I certainly don't know how to sideboard very well, which could be an issue. I don't suppose there're any guides anywhere?

sixty4half wrote:
Name another card that can Draw a free card, down-tempo your opponent 1 turn, lock your opponent out of playing for over half the game, allow you to circumvent card type restrictions, AND either trade favorably (card-for-card) with your opponent or gain you a certain amount of life because your opponent has to direct damage to it instead of your life total.

All for 3 mana


Teferi?

I don't like the card either, but given that I don't understand the meta I better not say anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:35 am 
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sixty4half wrote:
I kind of agree with Finkle. I dont know how many of you played before Planeswalkers (pre-Lorwyn) but the game was a lot more fun. Just to many free actions floating around. Mana, or land more specifically, was designed to be a resource that would restrict the power level of what you could do in a given turn that loosens those restrictions as time goes by. PWs circumvent that completely. Printing something back in the day that would give you 8 life and 3 free actions over the course of the next 2 turns, FOR 3 MANA, would have been unheard of.

First PWs I saw in Duels were those that you had to activate first -Kytheon, Hero of Akros, Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Liliana, Heretical Healer. They were vulnerable creatures and you had to work to achieve their PW-form. I thought that was the norm before I first saw PW cards that enter the battlefield already in that form.

The implication was that a PW is "more equal" than other cards and you don't just get one. Now we've been flooded with them and they'll haunt eternal formats for quite a while. And while expensive PWs like Garruk, Cursed Huntsman or Liliana, Dreadhorde General aren't much of an issue due to their price-tags, those cheap ones probably shouldn't have been printed.


Last edited by Sol77_bla on Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:42 am 
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Banedon wrote:
Hmm, I might not understand the meta after all. Took the GP Lyon winning decklist to Traditional Standard @ Silver rank, and managed to lose every game. Like, every game, pre-board and post-board.

The main problem seems to be my clock is just way too slow and opponent gets to do their own cool things, e.g. if I can't kill Edgewall Innkeeper, it's drawing a ton of cards and winning the game. I could turn it into an elk, but 3/3s aren't negligible creatures, and I have no good way to kill 5/5 Lovestruck Beasts either. Even if I did kill Edgewall Innkeeper with Wicked Wolf, they can bring it back with Order of Midnight, and I'll get out-grinded. I can't even try to kill them before they grind me out since my deck just isn't very aggressive.

I lost games to Jeskai Fires as well - I had no answer to Cavalier of Gales, and they had plenty of sweepers that made it hard to sit behind countermagic.

Wondering if I'm doing something wrong or just hitting a very bad streak. I certainly don't know how to sideboard very well, which could be an issue. I don't suppose there're any guides anywhere?

Well, it's a winning list so the guy probably knows his MtG a lot better than I do mine. However that list is a Bant list, which I don't understand in the first place - where do you need Teferi? Against Fires? :D Maybe if counter stuff comes back in force, he could become relevant again. Atm he's more likeTocatli Honor Guard imo - a "hate-bear". Also no Deputy of Detention at all. Sultai should be a lot better both in the mirror (Noxious Grasp) and against those otherwise problematic Adventure decks - Massacre Girl. You might want to read this article by BBD. It's pretty solid imo despite his intention being to complain about the deck. For I've already read that, I can criticize the 25 land / 2 Growth Spiral setup. BBD says if you wanna go Spiral, you better go 26 lands, but rather do neither. Also 3x Mass Manipulation? What the hell? We both enjoyed that deck some months ago, but I don't think, you should rely on an 8 mana card these days. It's even harder to cast than just any 8-mana card for it's color requirement now that check lands are gone. And trimming a Krasis for that? :takei:

That being said, I also lost most games yesterday, was trying Embercleave in a Rakdos shell. All creatures though, not sure how much and which kind of interaction to bring. At least I could falsify the notion that t2 Dreadhorde Butcher on the play is an auto-win. Though I never have these "auto-wins".. T3 Nissa? Yay all my animated lands are dead now and I'm stuck at 2 lands.

Funnily I was missing Kraul Harpooner, Collision // Colossus and Domri's Ambush - all green cards. That's a deja vu from those days when people hating on blue (count me in) were told to play blue themselves to beat blue.

Banedon wrote:
sixty4half wrote:
Name another card that can Draw a free card, down-tempo your opponent 1 turn, lock your opponent out of playing for over half the game, allow you to circumvent card type restrictions, AND either trade favorably (card-for-card) with your opponent or gain you a certain amount of life because your opponent has to direct damage to it instead of your life total.

All for 3 mana


Teferi?

I don't like the card either, but given that I don't understand the meta I better not say anything.

Nah, has to be Elvish Visionary, that one even leaves a body behind to eventually kill the opponent :)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:36 am 
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I think the problem with planeswalkers isn't that they're inherently unfun, it's just that WOTC print so god damn many of them that a lot of them are either lazy (the standard +1 draw a card, -3 kill a creature -8 win the game) or unbalanced (teferi, oko ect)

Like, walkers such as Sarkhan, fireblood, or Ajani, the greathearted are well designed as they are very powerful cards in the right decks but aren't just auto slam four in any deck, if more walkers were like these i think they wouldn't be as hated as they are now

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:11 am 
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Banedon wrote:
but given that I don't understand the meta I better not say anything.


I just want to know who the "duck leader" is


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:31 am 
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sixty4half wrote:
Banedon wrote:
but given that I don't understand the meta I better not say anything.


I just want to know who the "duck leader" is

see pages 33-35 :D


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:47 am 
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I’m guessing it’s a follow the duck reference?

Sol with the c-bomb dropping like it’s nothing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:28 am 
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Sol77_bla wrote:
sixty4half wrote:
Banedon wrote:
but given that I don't understand the meta I better not say anything.


I just want to know who the "duck leader" is

see pages 33-35 :D


Sorry, if I have to read multiple pages of these idiots talking about the idiots in our political system, I have changed my mind. I couldn't give a **** less in regards to who the duck leader is.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:41 am 
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sixty4half wrote:
I kind of agree with Finkle. I dont know how many of you played before Planeswalkers (pre-Lorwyn) but the game was a lot more fun. Just to many free actions floating around. Mana, or land more specifically, was designed to be a resource that would restrict the power level of what you could do in a given turn that loosens those restrictions as time goes by. PWs circumvent that completely. Printing something back in the day that would give you 8 life and 3 free actions over the course of the next 2 turns, FOR 3 MANA, would have been unheard of.


I thought the game was better before planeswalkers too. I do think there are ways to have them where they don’t make the game less fun, but they print too many with power levels that are too high. I liked the design from Origins where you had to work to flip them - I thought that was a good way to make them feel more balanced. I’ve disliked the ones where you have like 3 turns to hit them after cast from hand or their ult wins the game. Making 3 mana walkers like Teferi and Oko who don’t have game winning ults but have such a drastic impact on the board T3 (or 2 with Oko and goose) and disrupt/break entire strategies is wildly unfun. Even 5 mana Nissa where it’s not unheard of to ramp out T3 is just dumb.

It wouldn’t be so bad if they were relegated to a particular plane and would rotate out of standard for periods of time, but I don’t like them as a permanent fixture of the game and the way they changed how the game is played.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:39 pm 
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sixty4half wrote:
Sorry, if I have to read multiple pages of these idiots talking about the idiots in our political system, I have changed my mind. I couldn't give a **** less in regards to who the duck leader is.

Oh, but I thought, it was obvious ;)

Spoiler


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:01 pm 
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I’m guessing it’s a follow the duck reference?

Sol with the c-bomb dropping like it’s nothing

yup my bad joke was miles better than the tone this last posts went.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:54 pm 
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Correct

Anyway sounds like we’re all idiots


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:37 pm 
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I think the problem with planeswalkers isn't that they're inherently unfun, it's just that WOTC print so god damn many of them that a lot of them are either lazy (the standard +1 draw a card, -3 kill a creature -8 win the game) or unbalanced (teferi, oko ect)

Like, walkers such as Sarkhan, fireblood, or Ajani, the greathearted are well designed as they are very powerful cards in the right decks but aren't just auto slam four in any deck, if more walkers were like these i think they wouldn't be as hated as they are now


I liked the negative-only-abilities planeswalkers with static effect (except Teferi’s static which is obnoxious, but he’s not negative-only) they made in WAR. Most of the statics function similar to an enchantment or artifact, and only getting a couple activations from the activated abilities made them more palatable to face. That was a good way of making them not feel overpowered.

A big thing I’m not a fan of with walkers is how they altered the game in creating a 2nd target to attack, diverting focus from player life totals. With minus-only walkers, it waters down that aspect. I enjoyed the design of Origin walkers cause you had a window to ignore or hit with normal creature kill spell before they could flip. Plus-ability walkers make you focus attention unless you’re playing super aggressive build or in a dominate beatdown position when they land. The +2 ability walkers are gross.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Correct

Anyway sounds like we’re all idiots

That goes without saying

Anyway I agree with +2 abilities being the absolute worst.

I can live with Teferi... Oko on the other hand I just can't stand.
What an awful design... Whomever is responsible for it should be fired and feed to the dogs.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:13 pm 
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3 mana planeswalkers that don’t die to lightning bolt are the biggest problem imo. Planeswalkers are perfectly fine and healthy as 5 or 6 mana finishers. The problem is the cheap ones that snowball out of control before your AGGRO opponent (any opponent really) will have a way to deal with them. Plus abilities u can cast for free every turn are too powerful on cheap cards that demand immediate answers.

I also think that there isn’t enough generic removal that can also hit planeswalkers. Even rdw has to 2 for 1 on burn spells to not lose to oko; which makes them lose anyways.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:49 pm 
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^Torbran would like a word with you.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:51 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
3 mana planeswalkers that don’t die to lightning bolt are the biggest problem imo. Planeswalkers are perfectly fine and healthy as 5 or 6 mana finishers. The problem is the cheap ones that snowball out of control before your AGGRO opponent (any opponent really) will have a way to deal with them. Plus abilities u can cast for free every turn are too powerful on cheap cards that demand immediate answers.

I also think that there isn’t enough generic removal that can also hit planeswalkers. Even rdw has to 2 for 1 on burn spells to not lose to oko; which makes them lose anyways.

Oko being out of Fry range is another design failure

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:35 am 
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Correct

Anyway sounds like we’re all idiots

That goes without saying

Yes, my friends ;)

Though of course a wink is always implied, using choice words to make that clear and not leave anyone wondering if it's serious.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:51 am 
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It'd be really cool if we can avoid doing to this forum what some idiots did to the Duels forum about 4 years ago when the US was gearing up for its last election.

That's all


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