It is currently Wed May 22, 2019 10:06 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Arena Shuffler Broken
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:06 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar 18, 2016
Posts: 2237
Location: Anyway the wind blows
Identity: doesnt really matter
Preferred Pronoun Set: to me
Welp, people broke the arena shuffler. Or, found exploit, at any rate.

13 land RDW is a legit thing you can do.



I noticed similar things in Duels. I never tested something as ridiculous as 13 lands, but I had a 19 land Rakdos aggro deck that didn't have as much mana issues as it should have. In paper, I would have needed 3-4 more with the same deck. I also suspect Duels favors odd number of lands to even, but it's harder to determine than something super obvious like a 13 land deck working as well or better than a 20+ version.

_________________
Updated Decklists


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:35 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec 19, 2015
Posts: 1754
Duels had a cap on the number of lands I believe (if I remember correctly, you could not run less than 18 and not more than half of your deck size in lands)

That said, if a mollifying algorithm is in place, some 'exploit' like the one listed will be found.

_________________
My decks can be found in my deckbuilder archive. Enter here!


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:07 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24, 2017
Posts: 1438
Location: Cucho Lambreta#13992
BO1 is experimenting with this things... it was only a matter of time before someone exploited it.
Huey Jensen was up for the challamge and this will have repercussions.

The thing is that this 13 land abomination does not work without LUTS so they may end up just banning that card in BO1.

I don’t think any other deck can work with 13 lands.

_________________
:planeswalker:


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:53 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 09, 2013
Posts: 1647
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
I think 13 is the lowest you can go. With 12 it wasn't good :D


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:04 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 11769
Location: Secret Lair
Words cannot adequately describe the mix of rage and relief I am feeling right now.

On the one hand, this is an absolute abomination. They've **** up their game completely.

On the other hand, I've stopped giving WOTC my money already so I don't have to do any soul searching this time around.

_________________
"Let strength be granted so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:12 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 17, 2013
Posts: 760
?

What does this have to do with the shuffler?

In BO1, the game draws 2 7card hands, and gives you the one with the best distribution. So you basicly have 2 chances to get at least 1 land.

The entire deck tops out @ 3-manacost tops, with multiple other ways to reduce cost or generate mana with the critter. It's designed to only need 1-3 lands through a whole game, to be able to win. And the BO1 method of giving you the best out of 2 hands, makes that possible.

But alright. Sure, let's blame the "shuffler".

In fact, since it's so broken, go make a bunch of decks that curves out with some 5-6 mana drops on top, and run 13 lands in those. See if the "broken" shuffler saves you.

_________________
Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.

The NSA is the only branch of government that actually listens to people.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:11 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar 18, 2016
Posts: 2237
Location: Anyway the wind blows
Identity: doesnt really matter
Preferred Pronoun Set: to me
It's an exploit of the shuffler system. That deck literally isn’t playable in paper magic. It's not just opening hands - you can see in CGBs video that his total land draws throughout the games were comperable to a 20 land aggro deck. It was hilarious to see him ending some games with more lands on the field than his opponents with their standard mana bases.

I don't think you can build any old deck that works that well in Arena (RDW right now has a perfect storm of cheap burn spells, cheap card draw, and hastey 1 drops) - but the fact you can build any competive 13 land deck is notable. Maybe doable/passable with WW, mono green with mana dorks, and mono blue - but now that this info is out there, we'll see just how many viable decks people can build thanks to this exploit.

I'm not taking the same ‘arena is fuct’ approach to this as mjack, but this is notable info. Don't believe it's a big fat nothing burger.

_________________
Updated Decklists


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:42 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 13, 2016
Posts: 1216
One thing I don't understand though: if he's drawing lands, then he's not drawing spells. So the extra spells he got to add to his deck by having 13 lands simply aren't showing up anyway. Is it an advantage to be able to play 13 lands then?


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:38 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 09, 2013
Posts: 1647
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Sometimes you do draw the spells you want. I tested 14 lands with a low curve and it was really running well. Except that mono red isn't that good to be honest. At least not against esper.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:44 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 30, 2015
Posts: 1542
Gotta be honest, think i'm #TeamMwuanno here, I think that while the deck is surprisingly good and probably not viable in paper, it's not the most optimum list of RDW it's more just for the novelty of being able to get away with a 13 land deck, and if you lost to this there's about a 95% chance you would've lost to a 18-20 land version that gets to play cards like frenzy, risk factor ect anyway.

BO1 was always gonna run into the problem of linear decks being tier 0 with no sideboard hate, this is just another example of one, if you don't like it BO3 has a "normal" shuffler, and there's lots of ways to play it now, and if you don't like BO3 you don't exactly run into this every game (i play pretty much exclusively the free play option and red is just common, not everywhere)

TL;DR no the sky is not falling.

_________________
Future Actual winner of Steam Showdown 5.
I have a Magic Youtube channel, check it out here!
https://www.youtube.com/c/Nighthawk233


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:38 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9931
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Oh hey look, people are blaming the shuffler

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:07 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 30, 2013
Posts: 11769
Location: Secret Lair
Arena was **** long before they started messing with statistics.

I am just mad at the fact that a 13 land deck works in standard. AT ALL. I've spent 13 years trying to teach people to play Magic. I'm allowed to be annoyed at **** mana bases by now. It's hard enough to debunk stupid conspiracy **** as is.

_________________
"Let strength be granted so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:24 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9931
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
We should bunk up

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:32 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24, 2017
Posts: 1438
Location: Cucho Lambreta#13992
I believe its not just the two seven cards draw -I heard they are up to 3 already- I heard also on LR that the shuffler is also preventing lands pockets or mana starvation by distributing lands
The new mulligan rule seems a good way to prevent non games.

_________________
:planeswalker:


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:33 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24, 2017
Posts: 1438
Location: Cucho Lambreta#13992
On a side note mjack sounds like the worse teacher ever.

_________________
:planeswalker:


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:51 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 10, 2013
Posts: 9931
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
That last post would have made Hakeem happy

_________________
DCG-MTG wrote:
There's a limited amount of fun to be had in a single game, and this deck will ensure no one has any of it.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:42 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar 18, 2016
Posts: 2237
Location: Anyway the wind blows
Identity: doesnt really matter
Preferred Pronoun Set: to me
the deck is surprisingly good and probably not viable in paper


I think it's safe to drop the "probably" here. We're not talking about eternal formats where you can pull off manaless dredge or belcher decks - this is a standard legal aggro deck with 13 lands.

Quote:
TL;DR no the sky is not falling.


I agree with this. But it's hella funny that it's a thing we can do

_________________
Updated Decklists


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:09 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec 19, 2015
Posts: 1754
I believe its not just the two seven cards draw -I heard they are up to 3 already- I heard also on LR that the shuffler is also preventing lands pockets or mana starvation by distributing lands
The new mulligan rule seems a good way to prevent non games.


Well, I've already experienced both land pockets and mana screw that I lost games to. So... conondrum.

_________________
My decks can be found in my deckbuilder archive. Enter here!


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:12 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 25, 2013
Posts: 3420
Amusingly, if the algorithm gives you a fixed ratio of land to nonland, playing a 44 lands deck could give you a pseudo 36-40 cards deck due to the game drawing lands and nonlands like there were 24 lands in the deck, but qith only 16 possible nonland draws


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:46 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Posts: 2858
Location: Portugal
I remember some suicide black paper decks ran 16 lands and worked (still not 13 though).
The changes made to the muligans and land distribution smoothing are only in non-ranked free play.
CGB put that 13 land deck in an event. So it was playing with the standard 2 hand system. I'd say he just got lucky on that run. He could try again and get terrible draws.

I've said it before, the problem with the shuffler is clumping. With 13 lands the clumps should be smaller and further apart, which is about as far as exploit goes.
Drawing too many lands wouldn't be so annoying if they weren't usually all in a row.

_________________
Give me land, Give me fire, Give me that which I desire! :mage:
My Duels Youtube Channel


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group