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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:23 am 
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It's hard to believe Ghalta is worth running. If I have a big board then I'm probably already winning. That card looks like it's for monogreen. As for Divine Visitation, it's conceivable but there've been no top decks running that card, even though people have certainly tried. I imagine having to pay five mana for a card that doesn't immediately impact the board is a bridge too far in constructed. There are also ways to answer enchantments in the current standard - Knight of Autumn, Vraska Relic Seeker, Teferi, Assassin's Trophy, Conclave Tribunal/Ixalan's Binding all kill it. There's an Against The Odds article focusing on the card (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/ag ... l-standard) if you're interested, I'm avoiding it though especially since I don't have the wildcards.

OT, I finally played a game where The Immortal Sun stuck around for a time. It's fantastic and guarantees a win in any creature mirror, such as against Golgari. Only problem is it still dies to Assassin's Trophy, but there're relatively few of those in their 75 these days. Note to self, with TIS in play, March of the Multitudes should count all mana I have plus one.

Also, I get the feeling I sideboard too much and dilute the deck's strategy as a result. Taking out four 2-drops, 3 Legion's Landing and 4 Loxodon does give lots of space for sideboard cards, but it also means I'm much more unlikely to overwhelm the opponent. Maybe the ideal sideboard plan against Golgari is simply to change ~5 cards. I dunno. The game is hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:03 am 
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I never understood the "it doesn't inmediately impact the board" argument...in an ideal world where you stack your deck and curve out perfectly every game, it would makes sense...but in the real world, every deck has another 25 cards with the same problem, so...

Funnily enough, the Sun dies exactly to the same bunch of cards, and it's in the best case as fast as Visitation, given it cost 1 more mana

If nobody plays it, the better...nobody will expect it. Nobody either played Song of Freya in Selesnya, or 4 Nivs in jeskai etc...this Standar is constantly evolving like no other I remember

What can I assure is that it certainly pass the rage quit test, one of the best tests out there for me...it's the card with the higest possibility of making me quit when the opponent slams it, lol

I haven't barely played Seltokens, but in Boros, it's the card that I want to draw the most in any game that I don't roll over a stumbling op


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:49 am 
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"Doesn't impact the board" matters because if you're under pressure, it's a dead card. True, there will be games where either player fails to curve out perfectly and you get to cast Divine Visitation, but there will also be games where one player curves out perfectly and you lose because you have a card that doesn't affect the board. TIS does affect the board the turn it comes down - it gives +1/+1. The cost reduction on spells also helps you catch up the next turn.

Some theorycrafting about the value of Divine Visitation against the top decks:

Monoblue - you can't play a 5-mana do-nothing card against monoblue since they are so tempo-oriented, or if you can, you're probably winning already.
Monored - same as above. The more aggressive the opponent, the less likely a 5-mana do-nothing card is viable.
White aggro - per above.
Selesnya Tokens mirror - I can see it happening here, since you can probably chump block the opponent to survive a turn, and then the turn after you hopefully have something like Trostani and they can't attack anymore.
Golgari - I'm a little less convinced by the value of Divine Visitation against Golgari. They can survive a few angels: Find//Finality wipes out any number of angels, so does Vraska Golgari Queen, and Chupacabra answers one as well. So that leaves a March of the Multitudes for 3 or more before it's worth it (with a single card). With other cards you'd need to play two of these token generators before it becomes worth it. Also worth noting is that they are odds-on to have either Vivien or Vraska Relic Seeker postboard, and both of them kill Visitation. I imagine I'll still board it in if it's in my sideboard, but if I can only have one, TIS is probably better (especially since TIS cannot be answered by either planeswalker).
Jeskai - it should be okay here, but like Golgari, Jeskai has ways to answer 4/4s. Cleansing Nova and Settle the Wreckage kill any number of angels, with the former also having a "destroy enchantments" option. Jeskai also has Teferi to tuck away the Divine Visitation. I'm skeptical it's better than TIS here, although it's probably comparable; however it's not like TIS is very effective against Jeskai anyway. Visitation has an extra problem in that you must resolve the token generation card as well for it to actually produce 4/4s; TIS just needs to resolve itself. On the other hand, TIS means your own planeswalkers are inactive (although if TIS is on the board, you don't need a planeswalker).
Drakes - Five turns in against a Drakes deck is a tense time since they're probably done cantripping and are setting up a big Drake. Taking the turn off to play Visitation could easily mean they attack for 10+. One might survive, but the turn afterwards if they have removal for the angels it might be game over. The matchup against Drakes isn't about grind, making me skeptical. However, if Visitation sticks, they can't easily kill the angels, the angels have vigilance, and they're big enough to block Phoenixes + trade with a drake. Maaaaaaaybe.

Looking at the list of matchups, it seems to me like Divine Visitation is just a weaker version of TIS most of the time (something one can't complain about, because TIS is 6-mana and Visitation is 5-mana, but still). The only difference would be against drakes - I can see boarding in a copy of Visitation there, although I'd never board in TIS.

I remain skeptical but maaaaaaybe. One copy max, instead of the 2nd copy of The Immortal Sun, since drawing multiples would be a death sentence. Would also need to put the Saproling Migrations back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:25 am 
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The question professional players ask themselves is probably: does including [card X] create more or less match wins? So far, the answer seems to be "less", for Devine Visitation, since they aren't playing it (for various reasons Banedon explained). That doesn't mean though it can't or should't have a place in your deck, since there can be various other lines of reasoning to include it: the meta may be different, you just enjoy the card and to hell with 10% extra losses, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:36 am 
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I enjoy Journey to Eternity. Had to drop it anyway because it doesn't solve the problems with mono red. Actually it doesn't solve any problems :D


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:46 am 
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Auunj wrote:
I enjoy Journey to Eternity. Had to drop it anyway because it doesn't solve the problems with mono red. Actually it doesn't solve any problems :D


Wrong thread, but you could certainly try something with it. I saw it in a Golgari deck with Plaguecrafter to ensure the enchanted creature dies. The deck also has lots of ETB creatures that'd benefit from the blink effect. It's got the same problem as all auras, though (if you draw the aura without a creature, it's dead).


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:54 am 
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My response was a bit off-topic, but directed towards the "you just enjoy the card and to hell with 10% extra losses, etc." comment :-)
I tried making it work, even played 4 Plaguecrafter, 3 Vraska. Still it didn't work reliably.

Probably the same case with Divine Visitation. Nice card, but just doesn't work properly and opponents can play around it.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
"Doesn't impact the board" matters because if you're under pressure, it's a dead card. True, there will be games where either player fails to curve out perfectly etc etc


Yes, same as your other 20-23 lands, and probably half your 1CC drops...still not seeing the full force of the argument, I'm not saying it doesn't make any sense, just that it doesn't as much as people assume. And in my experience, there's more games where none of the players curve out perfectly than the other way round, not some...

Also, surely in Selesnya is different, I can't say, but in Boros, most of the time it does impact the game the turn it lands on the field, take a look at my list and you'll see why (obviously I still lack some cards, namely the 3º Gang, probably the 4º Benalia and some Legion's Landings, but not a 3º Visitation, given they don't stack...):

Image

With 4 Warboss, 4 Marshals and 3 Warleaders, the chance of making 1, 2 or 3+ Angels the same turn it lands are pretty high...moreover, Prospectors are surprisingly relevant, and if you still have a bunch of goblins around, you can even cast another Instigator, or even better, Reinforcements that same 5-6 turn, and then start laughing maniacally...

In Selesnya only Emmara can do that...but to compensate, March becomes so ridiculously good with Visitation...and Migration/Trostani/Song of Freyalise are no slouch either...


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Lands aren't dead. You need lands to cast spells, plus if you are eventually going to catch up, you need to make your land drops. Only 1CC spell in the deck is History of Benalia, which isn't dead either since it impacts the board. If by 1CC you mean 1 converted mana cost, then the only 1CC spell is Legion's Landing, which also isn't dead because 1) it's a 1-mana spell = probably would've already been played before you are under pressure, and 2) it's convoke neutral. You can play Legion's Landing, make a token, and then Conclave Tribunal the biggest opposing threat for example.

There might be more games where neither player curves out perfectly, but you don't have to curve out perfectly to put pressure on the opponent. For example in the Selesnya deck, if I T1 nothing T2 Emmara T3 Adanto Vanguard on the play, opponent is still under pressure even though the curve obviously isn't perfect.

Your list seems cute to be honest. Skirk Prospector is a dead draw in the late-game. The first Leonin Warleader surviving to attack probably happens less often than not, since it's a removal magnet. Haazda Marshal is not likely to be able to attack or make tokens, since it's got so few 2-drops to support it. We can play some games if you like, I'm genuinely not a fan.

@Anuuj - off topic again but what about cards like Thrashing Brontodon & Vicious Offering, maybe even Thallid Omnivore and Thallid Soothsayer?


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
Lands aren't dead.

Your list seems cute to be honest.

Skirk Prospector is a dead draw in the late-game.

Yes, they are most of the times if you are "under pressure" in your own words... but thanks for explaining to me how lands are useful in Magic, it was a revelation :takei:

Yes, it's quite cute...take, a 5-0 list which plays precisely a couple of "cute" Visitations (I knew the correct number should be two haha)

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1503086#paper

and another

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1520428#paper

and another

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1508444#paper

etc, etc...

or you can watch Riley Knight & company play it (not particularly well cause it's the first time, btw): https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4707&v=hQv6k0CGwpY

or read the guide of the deck: https://www.channelfireball.com/article ... isitation/ where they explain why Prospector, of all cards, isn't dead in the late game (hint: it really isn't, as I already explained why in the previous post)

Dude...lol


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:54 pm 
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You are coming across as quite aggressive. Keep it up and I'll no longer answer you.

Lands aren't dead most of the time if you are under pressure. Fact. Against the curve I mentioned earlier, one possible way to relieve the pressure is to play a third land and Golden Demise. Another way is to play a third land and then a bigger creature, e.g. a Steel Leaf Champion. In both cases you need the third land, for the obvious reason that a reliable way to beat an opposing 2-drop is to play a 3-drop. So lands aren't dead (unless your entire hand is all lands, duh).

Your list is cute not because it has Visitation, it's cute because of the other cards in it. Check out what's common in all those lists (in fact all of them have the same maindeck). They don't run any of the three cards I mentioned explicitly. They have eight 2-drops. They don't have Dawn of Hope, even in the sideboard (why are you running this grindy card in an aggressive deck anyway?).

Prospector is dead in the late-game. It's a 1-mana 1/1. It's not dead if you can use it to cast other token makers in your hand, but if you still have those cards in your hand it's not the late-game.

OT: Considering Kraul Harpooner more seriously now, since with larger sample size the matchup vs. Drakes seems to be quite miserable. Not having flyers to chump block with is a big drawback. Lyra has been underwhelming for a sideboard card and both times I cast her so far she just ate two removal spells and died. Yes, it's a 2-for-1, but I'm still getting hit for 10 damage and still probably losing, plus Drakes also runs Beacon Bolt which kills her 1-for-1. It's still a concern though how rarely Harpooner will be able to remove a Drake. There just aren't that many creatures that can be killed in the deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Guys relax :) you both have valid points! There's enough bickering on this planet already, remember we're all just here to have fun with a game. It's nice to be right, but it's even more right to be nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:50 am 
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World Magic Cup was last weekend, decklists here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/cov ... 2018-12-16

Only one deck ran Divine Visitation - the Selesnya deck of team Brazil. I wonder how it went. It looks quite unorthodox. It's running Karn instead of Vivien & Ajani, which I presume is because of the synergy with Divine Visitation, or possibly because the Golgari deck has already taken Vivien. Beyond that though, it not only doesn't run 4x Flower//Flourish, it's actually got Selesnya Guildgate. That sounds pretty silly; offhand I can't think of a good reason not to just run the standard 21-land 4-Flower//Flourish manabase. I wonder how it went for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:22 am 
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I like the Naya token decks. I am testing a similar version right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:19 am 
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DaRkStAr wrote:
I like the Naya token decks. I am testing a similar version right now.

Have a list?


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:52 am 
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Turbo wrote:
DaRkStAr wrote:
I like the Naya token decks. I am testing a similar version right now.

Have a list?

Ah, my bad. I meant the Twitch Rivals Tournament
There you can see all the decks: https://smash.gg/tournament/twitch-riva ... let/events
Semulin on 3rd Place for example:
Image

My Version because I'm missing some cards:
https://mtgarena.pro/decks/wrg-tokens/


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:29 am 
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That's interesting for sure... Im using Pride of Conquerors instead of Heroic though, which means I can stay in Selenya manabase too. March on endstep + Pride as instant on next attack is pretty bonkers.


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:11 pm 
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That deck looks really brave. Like, everything except Adanto Vanguard and Trostani dies to Deafening Clarion, and everything including both those creatures die to Find//Finality. How does it not auto-lose to these cards? Granted these are effective against standard lists as well, but those also have more ways to survive the sweepers (Loxodon survives Clarion, Ajani survives Find//Finality and can also buff some other creatures to survive it).


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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
That deck looks really brave. Like, everything except Adanto Vanguard and Trostani dies to Deafening Clarion, and everything including both those creatures die to Find//Finality. How does it not auto-lose to these cards? Granted these are effective against standard lists as well, but those also have more ways to survive the sweepers (Loxodon survives Clarion, Ajani survives Find//Finality and can also buff some other creatures to survive it).


"It dies to sweepers" is pretty standard fare for aggro decks. You just have to not over-extend and/or outrace them.

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 Post subject: Re: Selesnya tokens
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:46 pm 
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