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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:39 am 
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niatpac wrote:
This may not be relevant, but I'm surprised you're not using wilderness reclamation. I've been using a build that is sorta like simic nexus without the nexus...I just try to abuse all the extra mana from wilderness rec and then play sorceries like mass manip or finale of glory on my opp's end step. Being able to untap after a big mass manip is the only way I would consider using the card, but hey, if it got you to mythic power to you.


How are you going to cast sorceries on your opponent's end step? Only way I can think of is via 3-mana Teferi's +1, but asking for that, the mana to cast a big Manipulation, and Wilderness Reclamation all in play at the same time seems like a huge ask.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:13 am 
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Banedon wrote:
Reached mythic, OP updated but lots of question marks and I am not sure how to sideboard in a lot of (most?) matchups.

Gratz on mythic - and great update!

Played a few games last sunday, which went bad for the matchups hadn't been covered before. Phoenix is really bad imo - can we get some more flyer defense? Something that blocks Phoenix and kills Drakes? Is there some Reach Deathtouch creature with 4 toughness? :D

Also, Dimir Discard Control - maybe that's Tamiyo's purpose? Never played her.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:37 am 
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Tamiyo isn't there just to protect against discard. She's heavily proactive - digs you for your game-winning cards, and rebuys them after you cast them. The reason she's so good proactively is part of the reason I'm thinking of playing her again (maybe even more copies of her than Shalai, who's also proactive but doesn't advance your gameplan nearly as much).

For Phoenix, Lyra blocks everything and kills drakes, so she's your best bet. Shalai also blocks Phoenixes, she just doesn't block Crackling Drake which is the biggest problem. You could run cards like Kraul Harpooner or Deathgorge Scavenger I guess. My latest attempt has Narset in the sideboard, who immobilizes the Phoenix deck if she's in play and is also strong against control. I will need to test it more, but it sounds promising - I just need to use Growth Spiral instead of Incubation Druid to increase the number of hits.

Having said all that, new meta soon. Oh well. I'm constantly late to the meta and will probably be late again, because every time there's a new set I tend to hide in limited while waiting for the constructed meta to shake itself out.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:28 am 
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Most likely going to start working on this deck again soon. It seems to have gotten significantly better not just because of new cards but also because of meta shifts.

Most promising new additions are 1) scrylands and 2) fight Hydra. Preliminary list, although I'm not a fan: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/2071445 Still an open question if Bant is better than Simic. If Esper really is on the downturn, then counterspells might come back, after which Bant would be necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:04 am 
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Very quick note, I've yet to start playing constructed seriously (been getting distracted by other games), but:

1) The new fight hydra appears to be a stronger version of Entrancing Melody in the sense that it's not dead against control. Against aggro, it's probably less good, but still good: for example for the same 5 mana it takes to Entrancing Melody a Benalish Marshal, you can also fight the Marshal and leave behind a 3/4.
2) I'm considering starting with Temur Manipulation as opposed to Bant or Simic. Something like this - https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comment ... ith_temur/. This is for two reasons: one, why not? You have free space and Bant isn't offering much right now. I suspect I will miss Ixalan's Binding against The Immortal Sun, and Lyra against certain aggressive decks, but Teferi isn't so important because of the second reason: 6-mana Chandra cannot be countered and walks over control. It's also strong vs Nexus, and the other two modes are also relevant.

I will add my own tweaks to that list though - we will see.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Re: the discussion of Drakes few posts up, is Rule of Law a legit sideboard piece? It utterly hoses drakes decks, and pumps the breaks hard on mono red. If I’m playing drakes and opp casts rule, I’m scooping on the spot. If you’re using all your mana to cast giant hydras and steal spells or have mana sinks on activated abilities like Shalai, rule shouldn’t hinder your plan much in matchups you’d bring it in for.

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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:21 pm 
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Why would you scoop to Rule of Law as a Phoenix player? You can still hardcast Phoenixes or play Crackling Drakes, which aren't trivial for the Manipulation player to deal with. Sure your back is against the wall, but you're not incapacitated. Rule of Law is also specific for this matchup - one cannot sideboard it in elsewhere. At the end of last season I was playing with Narset, which seems like the much more widely applicable card.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:38 pm 
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If opp casts rule T2 off a mana dork, you can’t spell off to make your drakes hit for anything and you’re never getting phoenix back when they die. Obviously if rule is cast late and I’m ahead I wouldn’t scoop, but seeing it land early wrecks the deck so hard I wouldn’t waste my time playing it out. If I’m an Izzet drakes player, I’m reeeeeeealy hoping the card doesn’t catch on in sideboards or I’m sticking to Bo1 and/or crafting a new archetype to play.

It doesn’t only have value vs drakes. It hurts mono red pretty badly (goodbye gas), and aggressive strategies in general. Also seems valuable vs the various elemental decks that use Risen Reef (nice grip of cards you have there, it’s a shame you can’t cast them).

Just thinking about what deck could make use of it in sideboard, and it seems like ramp decks that want to tap out to play big X spells like manipulation/melody and hydras would be the best spot to test concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:22 am 
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If opponent casts Rule of Law off a mana dork on turn 2, can't you cast removal on the mana dork, Opt on opponent's turn, etc? The Phoenixes are never coming back, but it hardly looks like it's time to scoop. I don't see any other deck that I'd want Rule of Law against either. Against aggressive strategies it could stop them from casting two spells, but it's also a 3-mana card that doesn't impact the board - not where you want to be against them. Plus, it's a dead topdeck. I am unconvinced.

Otherwise, played my first league with pure Simic Manipulation and went 2-2. Lost to a Grixis planeswalker deck after mega punt (happily forgetting Sarkahn's passive) and a mull to 5, and to Bant Scapeshift; beat Esper control and Boros feather. Impressions:

1. Veil of Summer is one hell of an effective card against Esper. Like, wow. It's a 1-mana 2-for-1 that protects all your permanents (including planeswalkers) and protects you from discard. I thought it'd be good, didn't think it'd be this good. It was so good I minused Tamiyo to get it back the turn I played Tamiyo.
2. Speaking of which, because Veil of Summer also ownz Thought Erasure (plus Esper is less common now) Tamiyo might not be worth it.
3. Small sample size, but the two planeswalker decks I played against seems to indicate that The Immortal Sun is still worth having 1-2 copies of in the 75.
4. Voracious Hydra worked well, it's as good as I thought it would be. Against the Esper deck it just died the turn it came down (this list was running both Vraska's Contempt and Mortify), but against Boros feather I could play it as a 4-mana 4/5 - already a strong statline - and they can't remove it. Or I could just play it big enough to kill their creatures. Between 4 of these Hydras and 4 more Entrancing Melody in the sideboard I suspect this deck will have a strong matchup against any creature deck.
5. Scapeshift deck looks cool and should be a bad matchup, since I can't apply pressure until way too late when their land drops are making 2/2s (possibly even two 2/2s).

Will need to keep working on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:53 am 
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You’d cripple RDW pretty badly with rule. Punch a hole in their gas tank when they can’t go off with light up the stage, Chandra exile draw, the enchantment that lets them play off the top of deck, n the take 4 or draw 3 spell in builds that run it. The deck looks pretty weak when they can only play 1 weenie and 1 burn spell in a turn cycle.

Yes drakes can still cast an instant on your turn, but you’ve slowed them down to a crawl. The whole point of the deck and reason it’s competitive is it’s explosive spelling off. Maybe I could win a game with a limited deck playing against a standard deck, but I’m not interested in wasting time trying. That’s my take on scooping vs a T2 rule with drakes.

At any rate I’m just thinking out loud, not saying you have to try it. Just curious if it will show up in tourneys this season.

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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:22 am 
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I doubt this would cripple RDW. They can still Light Up The Stage and cast instants on your turn. With Chandra you still get to play the best of your two draws that turn. Frenzy is crippled, but they'd still be drawing two cards a turn for when they eventually blow up the Frenzy. And three're still the problems with Rule of Law: it's a dead topdeck, and it doesn't impact the board the turn you play it. Remember RDW kills your mana creatures. What if you don't have an accelerant on turn 1 and by turn three they have two Pyromancers and a Lavarunner? You could easily die (especially since they can still cast burn on your turn). Furthermore, if you don't play Rule of Law on turn 3, its potency drops quickly. By turn 8 for example you would much rather draw Hydroid Krasis than Rule of Law. We could play some games if you like, but I'm unconvinced.

Otherwise, I played some games with Brad Nelson's Simic ramp/Nexus deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2081407#paper Boy, the deck is bad. I have no idea how he got it to work. I literally had no way to interact and things like enemy Hero of Precinct Ones would just chump block forever. Against an Abzan tokens deck, opponent missed lethal, but had Trostani, and I had no way to remove it while opponent played March into March and walked over me. Nexus was just a 7-mana cycle quite often; it's possible I generate so much mana I can cast a planeswalker and Nexus on the same turn, and that indeed happened once, but with no other action in my hand Nissa just animated another land (which didn't even do anything against my opponent's 4/4 Gruul Spellbreakers backed by Domri's Ambush) and that's it.

The sideboard was also awful. Where is the interaction? Four Cerulean Drakes and 2 Ripjaw Raptors are nice against monored, but what about every other deck?

There are a few other things about the list:

- Leafkin Elemental was surprisingly good. I thought it's just there for elemental synergies, and to some extent it is, but it's able to tap for 2 mana surprisingly often even with the board not stalled. The point is if you play creature after creature, opponent is not going to be able to remove all of them unless he has a sweeper. With cards like Cavalier in play, Leafkin Elemental is barely a target. Then together with two Llanowar Elves or maybe a Nissa land, and you tap for 2 mana.
- However, Leafkin Elemental does not tap for blue mana. In a deck trying to cast Mass Manipulation this is a liability (and Brad still has 3 copies of the UUUU spell in his sideboard ...).
- Cavalier synergized surprisingly well with Tamiyo. It was also a solid body: 5/6 reach is basically unkillable by damage-based removal.
- Aether Gust was surprisingly bad. I was expecting a 2-mana removal spell, but then I realized it lets the opponent choose where the permanent ends up. If I targeted anything actually worth killing, it's undoubtedly going back on top of the deck, and then Aether Gust just stalls for a turn.

Overall I do not think Risen Reef is the way to go with the deck. It was OK, and impressive when it went off, but there also aren't enough elementals to really make it shine. It's not just Llanowar Elves and Hydroid Krasis here, things like Voracious Hydra are necessary to interact and that's not an elemental either. Maybe Brad has better ideas, but I'm sticking with the more conventional Simic ramp decks for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:34 am 
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More quick notes, I'm 100% convinced now that Rule of Law does not need to be in the sideboard of this deck, not because it's ineffective (although I'm still skeptical) but simply because green received a huge anti-Phoenix card that also works well with the deck: Cavalier of Thorns. At 5/6 with reach it's large enough to block Phoenix, trade with large Drakes, and survive all damage-burned removal. The only ways the Phoenix deck is getting past relatively unscathed are Entrancing Melody (takes 7 mana), Beacon Bolt for 6+ damage (still triggers the death effect), and attacking with a big Crackling Drake. That's really good, and Cavalier is already a reasonable playable. Hell, it even dodges the common sideboard spells Negate and Spell Pierce. Speaking of which, are these even good sideboard cards against this deck now? They catch Entrancing Melody, Mass Manipulation & Nissa, but importantly not Cavalier, Hydroid Krasis, Voracious Hydra, and Ripjaw Raptor. Disdainful Stroke on the other hand would be really strong against this deck.

Otherwise the deck still has some flex slots. If these are core:

26 lands
12 ramp spells
4 Krasis
4 Hydra (this does enough that I consider it core now)
4 Nissa

Then there're 10 spots for some combination of Manipulation/Melody, Frilled Mystic, Cavalier, Biogenic Ooze, Immortal Sun, Tamiyo, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:04 am 
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Have you experimented with Leyline of Abundance at all? Seems the additional potential of a t3 Nissa is worth it...

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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:26 am 
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I haven't. The problem with leylines is "what if you draw them later?" and I'm not convinced the green leyline is good enough in that case. Shalai's 6-mana activated effect is already tough enough to make use of, and this one costs 8. T3 Nissa on her own doesn't usually win the game too - you still need an X-spell payoff.

I'm aware it's in the MTGO 5-0 list though. Have you tried it?


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:12 pm 
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I have tried it in a very rudimentary Simic list I've built at the beginning of the format; and for the deck not being fine-tuned at all (no Hydras, for instance) it felt like there was quite some power level there.

I have also theorymonned a Selesnya ramp list, but have not played it yet.
My basic idea here was that Trostani is quite good against Mass Manip and works really well with the activated abilities of both Leyline and Shalai; plus I considered Finale of Devastation (as an additional copy of Trostani that costs 2 more, or as three 10+ power haste creatures for 12 mana).
The problem might be missing out on the carddrw that Krasis and Tami provide.

Didn't know there was a 5-0 decklist running Leyline; might have to check that out.

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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:42 pm 
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How many mana dorks do you run with Leyline? If 12, that makes the deck go from 12 ramp spells to 16 - not sure how reliable that is given that they're all bad topdecks.

Krasis is too strong not to run imo - it's one of the best mana sinks in the format period, together with Expansion//Explosion & Mass Manipulation. Clock, gain life, draw cards, Krasis does it all. Would definitely splash for it.

About Trostani, I think she's less powerful against Mass Manipulation compared to last season simply because Hydra is a clean answer now.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:13 am 
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Food for thought:
What does this have over Sultai Dreadhorde? I've been playing that lately and it has only 4 dorks (Llanowar Elves), rest value. Main deck Explore package makes it pretty solid vs Aggro and a big Command goes over the top of basically anything, no need for a 500-mana Mass Manipulation. I still have Nissa and Krasis and Tamiyo has really grown on me.

Cavalier of Thorns is probably awesome in either as it checks all those boxes I had asked for earlier vs fliers, but I haven't crafted any M20 rares/mythics yet. Also, Massacre Girl is great vs Risen Reef decks.

One game I had to discard 14 cards - none of them lands - after a Command that stole 3 Reefs from the opponent's graveyard :D


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:22 pm 
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I like two of each Mass Manipulation and Voracious Hydra.

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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Sol77_bla wrote:
Food for thought:
What does this have over Sultai Dreadhorde? I've been playing that lately and it has only 4 dorks (Llanowar Elves), rest value. Main deck Explore package makes it pretty solid vs Aggro and a big Command goes over the top of basically anything, no need for a 500-mana Mass Manipulation. I still have Nissa and Krasis and Tamiyo has really grown on me.

Cavalier of Thorns is probably awesome in either as it checks all those boxes I had asked for earlier vs fliers, but I haven't crafted any M20 rares/mythics yet. Also, Massacre Girl is great vs Risen Reef decks.

One game I had to discard 14 cards - none of them lands - after a Command that stole 3 Reefs from the opponent's graveyard :D


Ari Lax wrote about the weaknesses of the deck (and every other deck last meta) here: http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/3 ... ndard.html. To quote,

Quote:
The biggest issue with Command the Dreadhorde is also the namesake spell. Ideally you would fuel Command the Dreadhorde via a big attrition game, but this deck just doesn't have the tools to force that. You only have three removal spells, maybe a couple more if you count Vraska, Golgari Queen. You can attack down planeswalkers, but if you are doing that, you are in good position. You are all threats, no interaction, so Command the Dreadhorde is almost a weird slow Dredge finisher.

That makes your deck a goldfish deck, but with a midrange main plan. Eww.


Comparatively Bant Manipulation's weaknesses are:

Quote:
The lack of interaction is a huge issue for Bant Mass Manipulation. Teferi, Time Raveler is a huge step in the right direction here, but a Hero of Precinct One or Thief of Sanity that cascades out of hand under the ramp threats and allows a tempo game from the opponent is a big issue.

You can also look right at the Grand Prix Kansas City Top 8 and see two issues: Simic Nexus and Boros Feather knocking Bant Mass Manipulation out of the event. Even if Nexus of Fate is a more disruptable deck, it runs over Bant Mass Manipulation. And while Mass Manipulation decks have spent a lot of time optimizing to beat Mono-Red Aggro, they have weaknesses to other fast decks. If someone showed up to your table with Siren Stormtamers, that's your lunch break.


I think Ari Lax exaggerates a bit about the weaknesses, because Entrancing Melody is a legitimate piece of interaction as well, and besides Dreadhorde has it even worse. Nexus isn't too terrible pre-board simply because you have Teferi (Simic versions are crushed, however), and standard lists post-board add even more interaction with Negates and Thrashing Brontodons. Monoblue was a problem since their defenses line up really well against your interaction, but it wasn't a common deck last season.

That said, all this was last season. This season Manipulation received Hydra & Cavalier. Hydra goes some way towards fixing the weaknesses mentioned by Ari Lax. If you prefer Dreadhorde then more power to you, I did feel comfortable on the other side of the table in the Manipulation vs. Dreadhorde head-to-head match though.


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 Post subject: Re: Bant manipulation
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:28 am 
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Notes for today: hit 5-0 in Traditional Constructed relatively painlessly with this list, which I literally put together using the template above. Caveat, Traditional Constructed might be a great place to farm gold from but the competition there is significantly weaker than at the top of the ladder.

4 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Incubation Druid
4 x Growth Spiral
4 x Hydroid Krasis
4 x Voracious Hydra

4 x Frilled Mystic
4 x Mass Manipulation

2 x Cavalier of Thorns
4 x Nissa, Who Shakes the World

7 x Island
8 x Forest
4 x Breeding Pool
4 x Hinterland Harbor
3 x Temple of Mastery

Sideboard:

3 x Veil of Summer
4 x Entrancing Melody
2 x Negate
2 x Thrashing Brontodon
2 x Ripjaw Raptor
2 x The Immortal Sun


I don't believe the deck (and especially the sideboard) is completely tuned, but the power level is definitely there, and I was quite happy with it. In fact offhand I don't think I'd change anything except possibly The Immortal Suns in the sideboard to something else, like Negate, and the fourth Temple of Mastery.

After the 5-0 I played a couple of games on the ladder, both times queuing into the Risen Reef version of this deck. One opponent crushed me with Sleep - that card seems deadly against this deck since you either counter it or you lose (hell all my Nissa lands were locked out the turn after Sleep; with them I might still have survived). I was overall not that impressed with Risen Reef though. Yes, one game I got overrun by 2 Risen Reefs and 3 Leafkin Druids, but the point is you just cannot afford that many spots for elementals. The only other playable elemental is Cavalier, giving you 12 elementals. With cards like Hydroid Krasis and Jadelight Ranger too the Risen Reefs certainly aren't being maximized. Having said that, it's definitely scary to be facing down a Risen Reef without knowing how many elementals opponent has in hand, having two Risen Reefs in play at the same time is insane, and it's very possible the Risen Reef version has a slight advantage over the non-Risen Reef version in a head to head match, simply because the other version cannot pressure you very well and Risen Reef is already decent on its own. You can afford to play a 3-mana 1/1.

The other opponent was on the Nexus version, which I really don't get the point of. The board reached a point when it stalled, and then opponent played Nexus!! ... which was basically an Explore since it didn't do anything else. Meanwhile my Mass Manipulation stole his Tamiyo & Nissa and the game was over.

Otherwise I'm beginning to think of Bant again. Getting your big spells countered just really sucks, and while I'm still not a fan of Aether Gust, I have to admit that it's a reasonable card when played against me.


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