It is currently Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:35 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 243 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:50 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
So here's my take on the unearth evolve rockslide deck concept.

[manapie 90 -w u -b r g][/manapie]

Rockslide Ogre

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (26 :creature: , 10 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Cloudfin Raptor0/1
■■■■
Shock
Cost 9 cards
■■■
Hellspark Elemental3/1
■■■
Armillary Sphere
■■■
Ground Assault
Cost 7 cards
■■■■
Brackwater Elemental4/4
■■■
Rockslide Elemental1/1
Cost 5 cards
■■
Masked Admirers3/2
■■
Ogre Battledriver3/3
Vengevine4/3
Cost 7 cards
■■
Arbor Colossus6/6
■■■
Garruk's Packleader4/4
■■
Mycoloth4/4
Land24 cards
■■
Crumbling Necropolis
■■■
Frontier Bivouac
■■■
Jungle Shrine
■■
Savage Lands
8
Forest
4
Island
4
Mountain


I've added green for even more triggers. Very fun to play, very effective.

Some thoughts: almost every card triggers Packleader. Between him, the evolves, the Rockslide Elemental this deck has synergy, staying power, a great draw engine, all the things basically. Even good removal.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:31 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 13, 2015
Posts: 4303
okay, why armillary sphere over cultivate? late night over there?


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:43 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
This is more about mana efficiency that anything else. Cultivate is the better card, but it costs more. The sphere does what this deck needs: ensure we have the double red or green we need on turn 4 or 5. And it does it without overloading the 3 CMC slot, so that we stand a good chance of playing a card every turn. Moreover, this deck doesn't need to ramp, but it does need to mana fix. It tops out at 5 CMC.

Basically, I had a hole at 2 CMC, and I needed mana fixing = sphere gets the job.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:39 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 31, 2013
Posts: 7350
Location: Newfoundland
But Sphere costs four and doesn't ramp.

_________________
Check me out on YouTube


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:54 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 09, 2013
Posts: 1648
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
DJ0045 wrote:
So here's my take on the unearth evolve rockslide deck concept.

[manapie 90 -w u -b r g][/manapie]

Rockslide Ogre

A one vs. one deck for Magic 2015.

60 Cards (26 :creature: , 10 :instant: , 24 :land:)

Cost 8 cards
■■■■
Cloudfin Raptor0/1
■■■■
Shock
Cost 9 cards
■■■
Hellspark Elemental3/1
■■■
Armillary Sphere
■■■
Ground Assault
Cost 7 cards
■■■■
Brackwater Elemental4/4
■■■
Rockslide Elemental1/1
Cost 5 cards
■■
Masked Admirers3/2
■■
Ogre Battledriver3/3
Vengevine4/3
Cost 7 cards
■■
Arbor Colossus6/6
■■■
Garruk's Packleader4/4
■■
Mycoloth4/4
Land24 cards
■■
Crumbling Necropolis
■■■
Frontier Bivouac
■■■
Jungle Shrine
■■
Savage Lands
8
Forest
4
Island
4
Mountain


I've added green for even more triggers. Very fun to play, very effective.

Some thoughts: almost every card triggers Packleader. Between him, the evolves, the Rockslide Elemental this deck has synergy, staying power, a great draw engine, all the things basically. Even good removal.


Wouldn't adding a trample effect upgrade the deck? With a huge Rockslide Elemental or Mycoloth it would be easier to get damage through.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:50 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 677
Personally I don't see the point of Rockslide here. It doesn't benefit from unearth - the 2nd use of a creature doesn't "go to the graveyard" since it is exiled. If you had more token production, maybe. You already have mycoloth, ogre battledriver and garruk's packleader - put in a rabblemaster and you get 3/1 tokens every turn if you stack your triggers right. Or swap armillary sphere and rockslide for cultivate and elvish visionary. This will make it much easier to trigger the admirers and vengevine, and ramp you better later on.

Other than that I would suggest maybe a singleton hunter's prowess to refill your hand.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:45 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 12, 2013
Posts: 742
Location: [loh-key-shuh n] n. A place of settlement, activity, or residence.
HenWen wrote:
Personally I don't see the point of Rockslide here. It doesn't benefit from unearth - the 2nd use of a creature doesn't "go to the graveyard" since it is exiled. If you had more token production, maybe. You already have mycoloth, ogre battledriver and garruk's packleader - put in a rabblemaster and you get 3/1 tokens every turn if you stack your triggers right. Or swap armillary sphere and rockslide for cultivate and elvish visionary. This will make it much easier to trigger the admirers and vengevine, and ramp you better later on.

Other than that I would suggest maybe a singleton hunter's prowess to refill your hand.

I was thinking the same thing. And because of Rockslide's inclusion in this deck I thought unearth might be working wrong in DotP and having the creature die before exiling it.

_________________
"Don't underestimate the aerodynamic qualities of the common goblin."


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:45 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 11, 2015
Posts: 60
Overall cool deck DJ0045. Am going to try this deck out later in the evening. From first glance, would make the following changes.

As your list stands you have a good number of Forests, and '9' two cost mana and '7' three cost mana spells. It would be better IMO to swap the Armillary Sphere for Cultivate, I find Armillary Spear too slow (especially early on in the game it will take about two turns for you to fully carry this out), and lingering it for a few turns leaves it open to destruction (I personally have destroyed a good number of these). Just make sure your opening hand is reasonable.

I second with the other post by HenWen on trading out Rockslide Elemental with the other cards suggested.
Or just keep one, but more than one weakens the deck.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:52 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 13, 2015
Posts: 4303
why would you destroy something as useless as armillry sphere....


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:18 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
Armillary sphere isn't 4 CMC it's 2+2. That has an effect on its timing. Amongst other things it gives me the option to play my turn 3 as normal. And then if I don't draw my turn 4 land I crack and have enough mana for a turn two.

In this deck, that could be

2 sphere, 3 rockslide, 4 Hellspark + Crack, 5 ? Which I've actually seen and done many times.

Cultivate is the better card, it's also a different turn play. Sphere is a different CMC card, I can play it on turn 2, it fixes my mana for all requirements except GGG, that's enough for me. Oh and btw, what happens when you don't get your G to cast cultivate? Do you just lose those games?

Strategy responses on a different post. Because this debate is silly and expected to continue, lol.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:20 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 11, 2015
Posts: 60
why would you destroy something as useless as armillry sphere....



Fell over laughing when I read this. Thank you. :)

It just happens. Especially if Armillary Sphere sits out for one too many turns, and if I can will take it out. Unfortunately, some decks rely on this card for land drawing advantage. Seen this with my own eyes (and puts a smile on my face), players retrieving this card from their graveyards with Sanctum Gargoyle.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:33 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
Now, let's talk about rockslide elemental's inclusion. I like it, here's why. One trigger from unearth is sufficient IMO, and it's automatic. It sucks that the second doesn't work, but that's okay. It creates a permanent card that demands removal, and acts as pseudo protection for all of your other cards. Your opponent has to remove it first, or face an ever growing problem, and that's great in this deck, because this deck can go extremely wide, if and when it gets going.

That's the logic for inclusion, IMO. The logic for exclusion is roughly - non perfect synergy, dies to shock, weak to bounce, etc...

I'm totally open to alternate suggestions. Especially for a 2 CMC card that would switch out the spheres and replace them with cultivates.

E.g. + 3 Cultivate, -3 Sphere, +3 2 CMC creature (with some synergy please), -3 Rockslide Elementals

(I like the idea of elvish visionary, btw, thanks HenWen)

Edit: Another, albeit weak option would be Battering Krasis, which I do not like much, but also benefits from at least one activation of unearth Hellspark, and probably both from Brackwater. Could actually be pretty decent - I may give it a shot. (Nope, Krasis still sucked - Rockslide was the better card)


Last edited by DJ0045 on Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:43 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 13, 2015
Posts: 4303
I woud rather save my removal for important cards, destroying sphere is the same as countering cultivate, sure sometimes you screw them but useually you just slow them a bit and spent a counter (or removal in this case)


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:46 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
As for trample, this deck runs U. Forget Trample, we want artful dodge for evasion.

Also, why do I keep forgetting about that damn card? Wtf, lol.

Anyway, I wouldn't put it in this deck. At this time, I don't think the deck needs it. But I'm going to mess with the deck later today.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:10 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
In defense of Sphere:

One thing you are all missing is the value of sphere in an opening hand, over Cultivate.

Cultivate costs 3 and requires green mana. Even if you have it in your opening hand, you would want to see 2 lands at least and ideally one source of green mana. Even better would be three lands with at least one source of green mana. Those aren't steep requirements, but they are requirements, otherwise Cultivate is a dead card - and you are a dead player.

Sphere on the other hand is playable with just two lands of any color. In fact 2 lands + sphere, should be thought of as 4 lands for the sake of determining whether the hand is playable. If you never need to play the sphere, good for you, but if you do, you can make the proper calculation, and rapidly figure out how to play out your cards.

Basically, Sphere gives you a much larger variety of obviously acceptable starting hands. It will improve the consistency (from a mana perspective) of your deck, beyond the capabilities of Cultivate, because any two lands can activate it. You are in fact getting something for that 1 extra mana cost - less mulligans.

This is ever more important the more colors your deck contains. At three colors, probably cultivate is still better. By 4 or 5, I'd recommend Sphere by a mile.

Sure trilands make this easier, but bottomline Sphere has its place in some decks. You shouldn't completely discount the card.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:43 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 31, 2013
Posts: 7350
Location: Newfoundland
Sphere costs four mana. That's a big deal. Saying you can keep sketchy hands "because Sphere" just means that you're willing to take your first three turns off without the upside of being able hit a five-drop on the fourth turn (a la Cultivate).

Whenever my opponent plays T2 Sphere, T3 crack Sphere, I tend to win.

_________________
Check me out on YouTube


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:15 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
I don't doubt that, but I've never been your opponent.

Also, why call the hands sketchy. A 2 land hand could easily have all the tools I'd want and a sphere that confirms I've got tons of good plays to make. It's a hand I don't want, but can keep. Also what am I ramping to in a deck that tops out at 5CMC? This deck doesn't need quick mana, it needs consistent mana. Predictable mana.

Btw, have you never lost or beaten someone who had mana fixing issues? Never lost because you couldn't get that green for cultivate? You play all the time, you can't tell me it's never happened.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:25 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
Also, why assume the stupid play of accepting a hand that has no plays until T4. Let's assume you're right, and I actually had to crack on T3. That means I didn't have a 3rd land. How would I have played cultivate? Sure you'd win, I'm mana screwed. Congrats! Way to go! Cheers!

No offense, but think about it a bit, and you might see some logic here. I'm not claiming sphere is the better card, but I am claiming it's not a terrible card. There are some in our current list, sphere isn't one of them.

Edit: and sphere does not cost 4 mana, it costs 2 mana, 2 separate times.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:49 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct 31, 2013
Posts: 7350
Location: Newfoundland
2x2=4

If you don't crack your Sphere early then you didn't need it and should've done something else on T2. Cultivate ramps you for one less net mana and it's in your colors, I don't see how you can pick Sphere in any green list.

Also, unless you are playing 4 or 5 colors in your deck then I'd argue Traveler's Amulet is a better mana-fixing option because it costs half as much. I also tend to beat Traveler's Amulet decks. Cultivate decks not so much. :)

_________________
Check me out on YouTube


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:01 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep 06, 2014
Posts: 6982
Identity: ItsreallyDJ0045
Preferred Pronoun Set: I'm male, lol!
Okay man.

Regardless of all of that, the hole in this deck for mana fixing is at 2 CMC. The ideal start goes

1. Cloudfin Raptor
2. ?
3. Rockslide Elemental

If I was holding both cards, I might not play Hellspark, even if I had it in hand, so you know... Sphere. I would definitely not cultivate if rockslide were in hand.

Edit: and btw, that is a start that many decks would beat. I'm not sitting over here trying to suggest this is the be all end all baddest ass deck in the world. It's a very cool combo deck based on somebody else's build. Sphere is the right mana fixer for it. Their deck contained Rockslide, so my deck contains Rockslide - and therefor no cultivate.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 243 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group