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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:49 am 
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[url=/viewtopic.php?p=573118#p573118]Black Barney[/url] wrote:
Ive had people concede turn zero because of my avatar, I'm not kidding , "oh no, not this thing again. Every time someone has this I lose "

Well when you are unlocking cards and have just started playing and then you see you are matched vs a rank 40 that has the spare coins for custom avatars... Yeah they know where this is going.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:44 am 
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Yeah those avatars pay for themselves with the free gold you'll get

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Because coins are important now.... :(

I don't know why but I keep hoping they surprise us with the last set just based on all the crying and complaining we've done. I know it's not going to happen but it doesn't stop me from wishing for the 'April fools' or the 'Christmas in July' angle.

I have to say it's absolutely killed me watching all the spoilers and set reviews etc. for HoD and knowing that we won't have an option to consider until sometime next year.

/end rant


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:01 pm 
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elk wrote:
Because coins are important now.... :(

I don't know why but I keep hoping they surprise us with the last set just based on all the crying and complaining we've done. I know it's not going to happen but it doesn't stop me from wishing for the 'April fools' or the 'Christmas in July' angle.

I have to say it's absolutely killed me watching all the spoilers and set reviews etc. for HoD and knowing that we won't have an option to consider until sometime next year.

/end rant


elk


Being left stranded with ~10k coins when we were expecting another set does make me a sad necromancer :(

On another note.. Has anyone else run into the bug where you're unable to cast Censor and only having the option to cycle it?
The only way around it that I've found is by activating cycle but then cancelling it during mana tapping selection.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Kel'Thuzad wrote:
On another note.. Has anyone else run into the bug where you're unable to cast Censor and only having the option to cycle it?
The only way around it that I've found is by activating cycle but then cancelling it during mana tapping selection.


Yes, but I think I narrowed it down to only happening when you are trying to counter a counterspell. Not sure if it is the number of spells on the stack, or purely a counterspell issue, but it has cost me a few games. I didn't know/try the Cycle/Cancel trick. Thanks for the info.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:27 am 
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Kel'Thuzad wrote:
On another note.. Has anyone else run into the bug where you're unable to cast Censor and only having the option to cycle it?
The only way around it that I've found is by activating cycle but then cancelling it during mana tapping selection.


My workaround has been tapping the lands for mana manually before choosing it; seemed to work pretty consistently.

Wintervoid wrote:
Yes, but I think I narrowed it down to only happening when you are trying to counter a counterspell. Not sure if it is the number of spells on the stack, or purely a counterspell issue, but it has cost me a few games. I didn't know/try the Cycle/Cancel trick. Thanks for the info.


I found it would come up when your opponent would do something instant-speed (counterspell, carddraw, flash creatures etc.).

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:03 pm 
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OK I am waaaay behind on a lot of this. We don't have elixir of immortality but...
is Ever After still in rotation?

Key text - up to two creatures, meaning you can choose zero. Most inevitable wincon as of when I stopped playing, stands up to anything but a counterspell. Extreme value with that hulk guy. Allows you to recklessly burn through your deck using that UU draw spell.

Not gonna say anything else. Not interested in NuMagic because it takes FOREVER to unlock all the damn cards unless you shell out the big bucks.

I loved the community but I kinda disappeared... after I spent what seemed like forever and a day in addition to a big chunk of change unlocking, another expansion hit, and I realized this game was gonna be way too expensive forme.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Duels never had any rotations, so Ever After is indeed still available. For what it's worth though, Battle for Zendikar through Eldritch Moon just rotated out of Standard - no Ever After shenanigans for you in paper Standard.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:46 pm 
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I just gotta say I think the 4 mana instant that puts a card in an opponent's library is OK, this makes it card advantage neutral instead of disadvantage.

I strongly dislike the 6 mana timetwister effect. Sure maybe you have a ton of mana when you cast it, but your draw is totally random. If you fail to draw a sweeper right then and there you might be dead vs certain decks. I would only do this if I was already ahead on board.

Not sure what creatures are available, only auto include is that gear muncher guy who is beyond awesome. The added flexibility is tremendous since you should have a number of different cards in your GY.
But if you include the XUU draw spell you can easily run few win conditions. Ever after + the gear guy will give you excellent control unless your opponent can counter ever after or exile the gear guy. He can't do counters at sorcery speed but you will have access to all your other instants.

Just my random musings... I just love the idea of a deck with total inevitability, but I think ever after never had a place in control. It probably doesn't now, but I love the theory of "the most inevitable win condition" Brain in a jar/ zombies was nice but just way too much investment, and it required resolving a permanent for like 5 or 6 turns. There is enough card draw now that this combo is a little bit more practical.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Commit is particularly nice for mono blue decks, or control decks that take a while to get the shields up. It's one of blue's few options to interact with a resolved planeswalker or enchantment. You can run Commit just for the sake of having it and consider Memory a minor bonus that's useful in niche scenarios.

Pull from Tomorrow and Torrential Gearhulk are two of control's best tools available - just remember that they're a nonbo together as you can't pay any amount for X if you cast Pull for free with THulk.

Ever After pretty bad for control. Sure you can potentially get something like a THulk back eventually but, until then, it rots in your hand in place of what could be a useful spell. I'd consider Liliana, the Last Hope and/or Liliana, Death's Majesty instead.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:29 am 
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DCG, forgive me if this is obvious to you, but a lot of it comes from deckbuilding theory, building an ideal control deck. So check this out:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ivan-flo ... trol-deck/

I mean you can watch the videos too, they are incredible. He has kind of a poker face, but his expression when he slams down supreme verdict + quicken is priceless.

Here is the main point about his deck construction: he has only one win condition, aside from beating down with mutavault. That is a singleton Elixir of Immortality. His deck is completely divided into card draw (or other card advantage) and answers, which gives him massive virtual card advantage because he *only* has to protect the elixir. Massive amounts of card draw from Sphinx's Revelation wouldn't be remotely possible without self-mill protection. If he can hold you off for 10 turns, it is quite pointless for you to do anything, because other decks will have answers that do nothing, not have access to so much card draw, and generally are not built in any way to survive the long game.

So a completely inevitable win condition like Elixir means that he can run the rest of his deck as more reactive cards. He won't get draws cluttered by a bunch of 5 or 6 mana planeswalkers. Everything has a board-stabilizing impact (or draws cards).

In Magic 2015 I had my style of control deck... it was a 5 color monstrosity but basically URW with a splash of green and a single black card. I think if you had tons of mana the deck could manage 22 points of burn + Suffer the Past but by and large the burn was directed towards creatures. I had a handful of creatures that could win if the game was locked down, but by and large were meant to be defensive/ speed bumps. Even if these creatures were walls they would be about 90% as effective, once I stabilize enough for them to win I don't really need them to win.

The normal wincon was red mode on Obelisk of Alara, but even if obelisk didn't stick the backup wincon was Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. Of course you can hardcast him for a big body, but discarding him was also a great deal. Discard him and reshuffle after you have drawn ~30 cards will pay off really quickly because your newly shuffled library is going to draw you into a lot more gas. Kozi was an uncounterable Elixir immune to everything but instant speed graveyard hate (which no one played).

That meant 100% of my answers could target opponent's threats, and my opponent's answers were basically dead draws except burn or countermagic. This gives you virtual card advantage and enables a library jam-packed with answers. My design was nowhere near as elegant as Floch's but I loved it.

PS - Monk and Hakeem had a very similar build that was their joint project on a meta-dominating control deck - and it was! I think it was 6-7 cards off, they packed more creature hate in. The three of us were working on and debating the cards, was a lot of fun. Their build was better for an Xbox meta filled with beatdown, my deck was better for the later game and more varied steam meta. I lost to white weenie but every other matchup was favorable.

This was a theory rant. Grandpa is going to take his meds, go back on the rocking chair and sleep. Storytime is over children.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:15 am 
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The Monkeem Project! I loved that deck and I hate control

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:37 am 
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It was so much fun man. I loved every moment of it.

It wasn't until I took it against white weenie piloted by Aaunj (Auunj?) that I realized it couldn't dominate every matchup. He had something like 20 lands and the rest creatures, token generators, and anthem effects. It was brutal. No way to win without sweeper. I won maybe 30% of the time.

Every other matchup was really good except spider spawning... which is why I had a singleton delicious graveyard hate / burn / lifegain card, which was also really good against burn (you tap out for 3 burn spells at my face? I gain 10 life at instant speed :P). I think spider spawning was like 50/50 for me, a really skilled pilot could probably push it to 60/40 in their favor.

I think Monkeem would be more like 40% win vs white weenie and 30% win against spider spawning (both with very skilled pilots), but basically I think both our decks just dominated everything else, gorgeous mix of high quality answers and the final version benefitted tremendously from the entire 3 color land cycle.

Nothing in Magic: Duels Pay to Unlock (R) was remotely as fun.

Also remember the warp world decks? Friggin AWESOME.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:39 am 
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those were awful.

i dunno, i've had a blast with Magic: Duels, unlocked everything and haven't paid a cent. I have more decks now than I ever have in any iteration of Duels. Magic 2015 I only had 3-4 decks I think at any given time. Now I have dozens. It's great. I'm building 5 more tonight. Jank it up, yo

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:57 pm 
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I regularly ran up against the deck limit in 2015 (20 decks?)

You seriously haven't had to pay anything? How much time do you estimate you grind to unlock a whole expansion?


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:41 pm 
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I swear I haven't paid a dime. And I only play 2-3 matches per day. I'm really not that hardcore, in my opinion. I couldn't tell you how many hours per expansion. I've played 1,228 hours overall (I was embarassed about this until I saw that unbeatable has played 3,694 hours) and I guess I spent 1,000 of that grinding? 2128 multiplayer matches won (Gem has 8,257!!), 1067 solo battles won (Sleephumper has 1,539 matches won). I only grinded solo at the very beginning and then Beast wisely convinced me to stop that and only play multiplayer. he was right. It was faster and more fun to grind (this was right after they changed the rule that if your adversary leaves, you can immediately win the match. That changed everything for me).

As a gifted deckbuilder and enthusiastic planeswalker, I think you'd really dig this game once you unlocked everything. So many options and fun to be had.

When I think about the hours unbeatable has put into this, he's coming up on that 10k mastery rule. Amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:38 pm 
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I never did solo and I only ever spent $40 right when the game dropped. I haven't touched Duels in months and I'm sitting at like 40k coins with all the vanity ****. It's not hard to stay ahead of the curve if you get in early.

And now that we have an apparent end, you know that every coin unlocked is a countdown to a complete collection.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:39 pm 
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But we've already perfected Esper Control.

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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:00 am 
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Barney - thanks for chatting with this old man grumbling about new kids and their video games.

Divine - we certainly did! I was often quibbling with you about small points but your deck was excellent and you deserve every win. I have experience with evolving very similar decks for different platforms, it happened in 2015 too, my 5 color control was 6 cards off from the Monk / Hakeem version, they had a very aggro dominant meta and the 3/4 war monk just shut that down, together with the board wipes.

Going to move this discussion to a more suitable thread.


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 Post subject: Re: [AKH] Esper Control
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:21 am 
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[url=/viewtopic.php?p=587779#p587779]Black Barney[/url] wrote:
1067 solo battles won (Sleephumper has 1,539 matches won). I only grinded solo at the very beginning and then Beast wisely convinced me to stop that and only play multiplayer. he was right. It was faster and more fun to grind (this was right after they changed the rule that if your adversary leaves, you can immediately win the match. That changed everything for me).


I couldn't win multiplayer games much when I first started, considering I was unlocking my first cards toward the end of SoI block. I dumped $40 on the sale they put in for BfZ and OGW and I could easily win multiplayer matches at that point. I still play solo when I am brewing a deck or when I just want to relax. It just works for me.

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